The Power of Story: Helping Kids Heal and Thrive

How can storytelling help kids heal? In this episode, we talk to Dr. Sharon Zaffarese-Dippold to explore how story helps children make sense of their experiences, build resilience, and move toward thriving, including simple, everyday ways to begin using it at home. She is a psychotherapist with 27 years of experience in counseling and author of the "Garbage Bag Life" series, which emphasizes her journey through foster care.

In this episode, we discuss:

• Can you tell us a little about your own journey and why helping children make sense of their stories became such an important part of your life?
• What did you wish the adults around you had understood about what you were carrying as a child?
• Why are stories such powerful tools for helping children heal?
• What is it about a story that often feels safer than direct conversations, especially for children who have experienced trauma, loss, foster care, adoption, or family disruption?
• What happens when children don't have a coherent story about their lives?
• What are some of the questions they may silently wrestle with?
• Many parents and caregivers are afraid of saying the wrong thing around a child’s story. What do you suggest?
• What does it mean when a child moves from "What's wrong with me?" to "What happened to me?"
• What are some simple ways parents and caregivers can build storytelling into everyday family life?
• Stories can be used for more than understanding a child’s history in adoption, foster care, and relative care. They can also help children recognize their strengths, resilience, and a sense of belonging.
• How can parents and caregivers use storytelling to build family identity?

Resources:

• How to Talk with Our Kids About the Difficult Parts of Their Stories
• How to Make and Use an Adoption Lifebook
• Building the Framework for Adopted & Foster Children to Process the Hard Parts of Their Stories
• The Healing Power of Storytelling
• Suggested Books for Kids:  Adoption, Foster Care, and Kinship Care

Transcript

Tracy Whitney 0:01

Hello and welcome to Creating a Family. Talk about adoption, foster care, intensive care. My name is Tracy Whitney. I am the content director here at Creating a Family, and I am very excited to dig into the power of story to help children thrive and feel today. We are thrilled to welcome Dr. Sharon Zafir Dippold. She is an accomplished psychotherapist with over 27 years of experience guiding adults to healing, growth, and the rediscovery of balance. She also students in human services, specializing in counseling studies and human behavior. Dr. Sharon is also the best-selling author of The Garbage Bag Life Series, which emphasizes her journey through foster care. So, Dr. Sharon, welcome to Creating a Family. We're so grateful to have you here today. I'm excited to be here. Thanks.

Can you tell us a little about your own journey and why helping children make sense of their stories became such an important part of your life?

Tracy Whitney 0:54

So before we talk about how to use storytelling as a tool for healing, I'd love for our listeners to hear from you about your heart for this work and kind of tell us your journey, why helping children make sense out of their story became such an important part of your life and your career.

SPEAKER_01 1:12

Sure. Thank you. First of all, I'm so excited to be part of this with the world of parents that take care of children and children in need, whether foster parents or kinship parents or adoptive parents. Like this is the reason that I shared my story was to really connect with these families and share with them the tools, right? Of reading, not just reading stories to children, it's for adults to read stories, right? So you know, one of the things with reading stories to children is we use that to kind of teach them or right and to guide them or help them, and we'll talk more about this as we connect, a safe place. But it's also the same thing for adults. As adults, we're the same way. When we read a story, we can connect with that story, or it takes us back to a memory, or it takes us back to a feeling. And so my journey through the foster care system started, and I'll kind of come back to this point when I was just an infant. I entered the foster care system because I sadly, with a lot of other children, had parents who just weren't capable of taking care of me. Right. So I was removed 18 months and I spent 15 years in foster care. Um, so nine of those years, I lived with one family and then was moved from that family. And then within a period from nine to 15, I moved 20 sometimes within the foster care system. You know, because back then we didn't have, you know, parental rights terminated. You know, so again, my story is a little bit different. I hope my story is different with all the laws they put in place to make sure that children do not spend their life in foster care, right? With you know, the termination laws and all of that. But back in the 70s and 80s, that wasn't the case. You know, so I I grew up in foster care. And then when I was adopted at 15, by the way, a funny story by a woman who was only 23 years old. Again, and we're gonna talk about stories, she was only 23, and she gets this 15-year-old, uh, which was myself because she did him, my younger brother, no clue of my story. No clue, none, no clue of the details of the trauma, of anything else along those lines of all the abuse. So I knew strangely in ninth grade, I remember somebody said to me, What do you want to, what do you want to be when you grow up, right? In the magic question. Meanwhile, I was getting all F's in school, so I thought it was a really interesting question to begin with, right? Right. And I thought about it and I'm like, which is surprising. I'm gonna be a social worker. I remember the day that word came because I hated my social worker, right? She was not a nice person whatsoever. I was shocked. I literally remember the moment I sat there frozen, going, why did I say that? Like, no, I hate social workers. Why do I want to be one? And then when I sat with it, I thought, I want to change the system, right? And you know, and we're gonna talk about resiliency and the power of the story. And at the time, what came out of my mouth in ninth grade is I didn't go through all that for nothing. Right. So, so then I entered the journey of getting my bachelor's in social work, which shocked me because I mean, when I was a senior in high school, I had my guidance counselor come to me and tell me, you are not college material. So I think the defiance of my ADHD, I would entered college on probation because my grades were so horrible and I did very well. You know, I found that when I was talking about social work or helping people and all those things rather than math class, it was my strength, and I wasn't so dumb after all. Right. So I then knew that I really wanted to go down that path. And I also knew that I wanted to write my story. I remember thinking that my senior year in high school, I'm like, I'm gonna write my story. I want people, and it wasn't even about kids at that point. You know, my thing was I want foster parents to know how to help kids. And how are they gonna know how to help kids if they don't know what foster care is?

Tracy Whitney 5:16

Right.

SPEAKER_01 5:16

So then I ended up um with my master's, had no intentions of obtaining my PhD. I was happy with just my master's in social work. But then when I did a uh training one day, somebody said to me, they're like, you're not considered an expert on any topic unless you have a PhD. And I thought, at first I was offended because I'm thinking, what? I don't think you have to have a PhD to be expert. Living it and learning it is enough, right? And I don't regret my PhD. I learned a lot in that program, so I'm really helpful happy with that journey. And so I obtained my PhD in human services.

What did you wish the adults around you had understood about what you were carrying as a child?

Tracy Whitney 5:53

So along the journey, you've mentioned several adults who had things to say to you, some which were affirming and some which were not so affirming. What do you wish the adults around you had understood about you and what you were carrying as a child that maybe would have helped them speak differently into your life?

SPEAKER_01 6:13

So my story, which is why I love the title of your podcast, because my when you're talking about everybody has a story.

unknown 6:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:22

Even right down to teachers, right? In my book series, I had somebody approach me and say, like, you spend so much time talking about teachers. I'm like, I didn't plan that. I didn't sit down and write my story and go, Oh, I'm gonna give teachers the spotlight today.

Tracy Whitney 6:36

Right.

SPEAKER_01 6:36

But teachers are such a major spotlight. They're with your they're with your children, they were with me eight hours of the day. It was the only place I wasn't being physically, sexually, or emotionally abused in many times, right? So if they would have known my story, then the connection would have been different. They wouldn't have been yelling at me about getting an F on a spelling test or the fact that I was falling asleep in school, they might have explored why I was falling asleep in school, not worried about the F's, right? So again, it goes back to what I wish they would have known was my story because I didn't share my story until I became an adult. Even my adopted mother, she when I wrote the first book, she had naived with her from the time I was 15, right? She was still, she's my mom, you know, grandma to my babies and great grandbaby's for her too now. She didn't know my story until she read my books. Because I never shared my story because it was full of shame.

SPEAKER_03 7:36

Right.

SPEAKER_01 7:36

And that's the power that families have how to teach them and help them start sharing their story right from the beginning.

Why are stories such powerful tools for helping children heal?

Tracy Whitney 7:46

Well, that brings up a great point. Many of us tend to think of stories as entertainment only, but you see them as so much more powerful and meaningful. Why can they be such powerful tools to help a child heal?

SPEAKER_01 8:02

Well, you know, let me kind of start with this. A lot of times for children, they're the world is about them, as it should be developmentally. It's worse when they're teenagers.

SPEAKER_00 8:13

When they're teenagers, the entire world is about them. What do you mean you're making spincetty? You know I don't like that.

SPEAKER_01 8:19

Yeah, but even younger children, the world is about them. So if you think about that, doesn't that make sense then? If somebody's not able to take care of them, then it's their fault. Right? If somebody's if they're getting hurt, it's their fault. It must have been something I did. I shouldn't have said that. Well, maybe if I wouldn't have done that, I wouldn't be here. Or, you know, if I'm being sexually abused, believe it or not, a lot of children still blame that on their fault.

unknown 8:45

Right.

SPEAKER_01 8:45

I shouldn't have worn those clothing, or I shouldn't have done that, or maybe I shouldn't have sat that close to them, you know. So to kind of go back, one of the things with storytelling is it really helps let go of the shame. You know, uh a quick story. In my early years as a social worker, back in the early 90s, when HIV and AIDS was very popular at the time, and active, I should say, not popular, was active. I worked with HIV positive children that were dying, right? It was fresh out of the 90s. We were we were having more funerals than anything else with these with these foster children.

SPEAKER_03 9:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:20

And I was in the hospital with this little lady, to say her first name, because I won't preach any confidentiality, not her last name, but Tris. And she was 18 months, and I was holding her and she was passing. And that the doctor came up and she's like, Wow, there would have been nobody here for this baby, and it was so nice that you're gonna be here. And I'm like, Of course, of course. And then she whispered, I was a foster kid. Whispered. And that's what we do. Either we do don't talk about it or we whisper it. And here's an adult person, right? Because and the reason we whisper is because of the shame of our story. Because if we tell our story, then we're telling people we weren't wanted, that there was something wrong with us, that we were damaged. So now think about that. Think about this this person whispering, and now think about if you start teaching these children their story, right? Then they're not growing up with that shame. You know, I do when I do my my presentations, I'm like, you know, I feel bad for all of you who only got to grow up with one family.

SPEAKER_00 10:27

Like, how boring was that? Right? It's like, thank goodness. I'm like, I got 21 families to learn from. You only got one. Like your life was boring, right? And what is that?

SPEAKER_01 10:39

That is balancing, right? That is because in in there was a couple good families, but the majority of my families were absolutely horrible. That should not have been foster parents, but yet I found a way to balance. So when you start teaching children their story in a safe environment in the correct way, and that we'll talk about that, then use you help them naturally balance their story. You know, when I used to do or used to do book signings, I still do book signings. I like this one liner. Foster care does not define you, you define you, but then I'm like, wait a minute, that is still shedding a negative light on my foster care experience. Because I'm saying foster care doesn't define me, I define me. It's almost still like I'm like, wait a minute, no, no, no. I define me, and my foster care experience helped build me, contributed to that definition, yeah. Yeah, we're all built by our stories, right? The way we our perception, a lot of times when I work with adults, and that's even trauma, like because of how you see something, it's based on your experiences. So, and I know like so foster parents, when you're helping children learn their stories, you can help them teach them in regards to reframing perceptions that are because your perceptions are going to fuel your self-esteem, right? Which leads to the point of when you help children with their stories, it releases shame. It teaches them how to like, whoa, like I'm stronger than I thought I was. Yeah, like wow, okay. You give them, oh, this is my voice. Oh, I do like, I do like grapes. Like, no matter how silly the topic is, it's still their grapes are still their story, you know. And then as an adult, if you're working with children on their story, you're gonna again, they're gonna, you're gonna build trust, you're gonna teach them, and we'll talk about this more, their safe place. You're gonna listen to them, you know what, as foster children, nobody listened to us. We didn't have a choice. My new whole advocacy in the foster care world is let the foster kids have a choice. Give them two families. This family has this, it's able to, and this family offers this. Which one would you like to try? Right? So, again, with the story, this is their story, and you start to create that and mold that world of their story, that is going to take them through their entire lives and it's going to change their perception.

Tracy Whitney 13:10

You just made an excellent case for why we need more foster families stepping into those spaces because it would truly make it a child-centered system where the child has the choice. I think this family is a good fit for me. Yes. Rather than just they have empty beds. You have to go here.

SPEAKER_01 13:29

Right. Right. And again, I'm I you know, one of the things I like to do is train social workers. Yeah. I heard this is your last family. Nobody else is going to want you. Please don't burn through this family. Oh, Sharon, we're moving you again. You have to be good, right? Like all those things. And you're right. You know, it's one of the things of the garbage bag life series that I've received a lot of feedback because not just foster parents are reading these books. Everybody's reading these books, and I'm getting so much, like, I had no idea. Um, considering being a foster parent. Like, and that's like, and I message everybody back that message me that like awareness, right, is the key to the whole thing for more foster parents because people don't know the foster. We do as professionals, or foster parents, or kinship parents, or adoptive parents, because you you came into this world and you're trained on it. But a lot of people aren't. They're they're not trained on that. And that's why I actually the way I wrote my story was not in a memoir format, right? I actually wrote my story like a novel, but it's a true story. So you grow up with me in foster care because I wanted the storytelling. I wanted you to hear about Thunder, who was my favorite animal, or Lucky the Cat that I got to save. Like I wanted you to be in my mud pie station with me because that's the power of a story that you will feel that in connecting.

Tracy Whitney 14:48

And we will link to those stories in our show notes for listeners who want to learn more and read her story. We would like to thank the Dave Thomas Foundation for Adoption for sponsoring this podcast. The Dave Thomas Foundation for Adoption believes that together we can ensure every child has a permanent loving family. Read the stories of youth and families touched by adoption, including adoption from foster care, and access resources for parents, caregivers, and child welfare professionals at Dave Thomas Foundation.org.

What happens when children don't have a coherent story about their lives?

Tracy Whitney 15:26

What happens when a child doesn't have a coherent story, um, a coherent thread through their story?

SPEAKER_01 15:35

You know, I okay, so this is where creation is fun, right? Let me give you an example. Um if somebody says, I don't have a story, everybody has a story. Yeah. Animals have a story. Everybody has a story, right? So if a child says, I don't have a story, help them. You know, there's a fun activity that you can give a child, or an adult, by the way. I use this with adults, they're like, I don't even know where I'm from or where I'm going. It's called my favorites. You can sit down with a child and go and come up with the questions first. What's my favorite color? What's my favorite season? What's my favorite time of day? What's my favorite animal? What's my favorite food? What are my favorites? And then spend some time with them in their safety, helping them answer that. That's their story.

unknown 16:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:23

Because the story is you. Your story isn't just about your experiences. My story is also what I like, what I don't like. So for children, that might be the safest place to go with the child, is in regards to what their favorites are. Because who are you? No offense, but if I come into your home and I've been moved 20 times, do you think I trust you? Absolutely not. Right. No, right. Do you think I'm gonna stay with you? No, it's only a matter. I'm out of there. I already know that before I get in there. So can you imagine taking me into my safe place and talking to me and going, oh, let's do your story? I'd be like, oh no. Nope. Nope. I'm not giving you my story. I don't know what I like, I don't know where I've been. I don't want to talk about my trauma. We can talk about that later. I but you know what you can say, let's do the favorites. I don't want to tell you my favorite. I don't want to tell you my favorite, Clark, because I'm not staying here. Because keep in mind, you're asking me to be vulnerable. Right. You're asking me to share myself with you. And maybe, and if I do that, I can get hurt when I leave. That's what people need to know. Right? So the power of a story, let's make up one. What like let's let's make up a bunny story, let's make up a dog story. Like, because child children typically love animals, right? Help them create a story, even get like a little notebook where you can write it down for them as they're talking. They will give you their details in the story they make up because it's safer that way, right? And you know, I've had foster parents go talk to Cher or Cher, probably.

SPEAKER_00 18:00

Um, I'm not creative.

SPEAKER_01 18:02

Like, how do I, how'd I like? I don't even know where to start. You know what I tell them now, Google? Yeah. How do I be creative? If you type in like how do I be creative to help a child start to make up a story about an animal, it will walk you through it. A child doesn't know that you have those cheat sheets on your hand, right? Like of going in, of going in there. So that's how. So if somebody if it feels disconnected to them, if they're presented that way, that's just a safety. Don't touch that.

SPEAKER_03 18:33

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 18:34

They they're not ready to offer that information for you. Yeah, instead, allow them to make up something else. Um, now, and we let's say that the child's younger and they they're not connecting any of those dots of what their story is, that even becomes more fun for you because then you can start that at the beginning from them. You know, some and some people say, should we take them back and have them talk about their trauma of their story? And my you know, my answer is always no, not until they lead you, not until they give you those details. You stay away from that until they give you those details. So if the if they start with, oh, my favorite thing is grapes, you start with grapes. And that creates that coherency, that creates that through line. Yeah, because here's the other thing, right? If you're sitting with me and you want to know what my favorite food is, like you're actually giving me attention. We're building a relationship, even if it's only a couple minutes. Like you want to know something about me. Uh that's gonna instantly start to build a relationship. Now, I do want to offer this to parents, it can also trigger my behavior. And I want to go here quick, not to scare people. Because when you have children that have been through the system or have attachment struggles, right? As you begin to try to build with them, even through something that is non-threatening, they might try to start to push you away because you, if you're the only adult that's listened to me, I might like it for the moment, and then I might subconsciously try to push you away. Right. It feels scary. It's scary. Like I know what to do with moving, I know what to do when you're mad at me. Like if we use my I know what to do if you're mad at me. I don't know what to do if you like me. If you like me, that's scarier. Right. If you want to lock me in a closet, yeah, I've been there before, I know what that is. Like, okay, right. But if you want to spend time with me, right I don't know what you want. Mistrust, right, right. Right. You know, so one of the things I always say to families is when a child, when you start to see behaviors, you know, one there's always a powerful, there's always I call it the W's, there's always a powerful thing to start with. What can I do to help? I can tell you're upset. Let them do the work. I always say to foster parents, let them do the work. If they scream, I don't know, get away from me, get away from them. If make sure they're safe, okay, give them space, but come back and go, what can I do? I can tell you are upset. Let their voice be heard rather than you trying to figure it out always, even in therapy, right? When I was working with kids in trauma, I would say to them, What do you what can I do to help? What would you like from me today? What can we do in this hour that we're spending together? Right. And there was many times kids like an hour, what can you do to help me in an hour? What do you think?

Tracy Whitney 21:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:20

We color. Absolutely. I love coloring. Let's color. I had adults say, Can we draw together? And not adults, but like older um kids in foster care, right? Um, but can we can we draw together? I'm like, yeah, I'll draw a picture and you guess what it is because I don't even know when I'll be trying, right? So um, so yes, those are the things that you know that you can do if a story doesn't seem to flow, start it with them.

SPEAKER_03 21:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:47

And use the words. What is your story?

unknown 21:50

Yeah.

What are some of the questions they may silently wrestle with?

Tracy Whitney 21:51

So, in your experiences, what are some of the questions that kids may be wrestling silently with that? they don't know how to bring out into the light into a story.

SPEAKER_01 22:04

You know, I always say think about fear.

SPEAKER_03 22:09

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_01 22:10

Fear is the core. And all the questions typically are start with a different. Why, what, when? Right? Yep. Who am I? Why am I here? You know, when will you make me leave? What what will happen when I make you angry? Why doesn't anybody want me? Why don't I belong? Where do I belong? Right. Where do I belong? Right? Who am I? Those are the the W And I always say later like what I'm like think of W's. Why what? Who? You know, what can I do? Like why am I here? What are you gonna do to me? What's gonna happen to me here? When am I going not if I'm going to get hurt for some children, right? And I'm hoping things are better, but when is that going to happen? Where am I going to hide? When can I lock my bathroom door? When do I what do I have to eat? You know, when do I have to go to bed? All of where am I gonna where am I going to live next? There are I'm already coming into your house wondering what my next foster home is going to be like for some. Right. Right. And for others, you know, for other children gratefully that's not like the the laws are changing. You still see where some things are slipping through the crack the permanency but those things so the one of the things you can ask or what kind of questions do you have about being here? And this can happen at the beginning. And it's not even about being pushy but you'll be surprised at what you get you know and if they're younger have them draw you a picture. Draw me a picture about the questions you have in your mind. Right? If they're a teenager do you want to write down your questions and leave it for me? And here's a safe way for teenagers do you want to write down your questions and leave it for me and then I'll respond back to you. Yeah yeah because sometimes communication as we've talked about is means you have to be vulnerable and it's harder.

Tracy Whitney 24:01

Yeah yeah the face to face with adolescents can be very intimidating moving from to that side by side position or that silent transaction in a journal like that like you suggested can be really helpful. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:17

Yeah you know and speaking of a journal one of the things I like is going shopping find your well I like to talk about family journals in a second but for a communication journal with a teenager take them shopping and say I want you to find a journal that makes you think of yourself. Yeah but it's going to be maybe two journals one journal is for you and you can write in it and then I actually want you to go through your bedroom and find a really good hiding space for your journal. Give them the permission to do that. Right, right. And then the second how about a journal for us how about a journal for us that we can write back and forth with when we want to talk about what our feelings are or if you're upset with me for something and you want to write it in the journal and then let's decide together where we're gonna keep that journal so we both can write messages back and forth.

Tracy Whitney 25:09

Right, right.

SPEAKER_01 25:10

And so you've been in my home for 48 hours and I'm already one doing an activity with you. Two I've already encouraged you to hide something from me so that you feel safe right and three I've given us a mode of communication and again because journaling is also a tool for storytelling. Because what are they doing when they're writing they're expressing and it's actually our story of being together.

Tracy Whitney 25:38

One thing I found helpful too is when those bits and pieces are doled out to me then narrating it back to them in a slightly more maybe third party observ observational method hey I noticed X, Y, and Z when U A, B, and C, and it helps them to hear it because it's all their words, it's all their actions, it's all their language, I'm just mirroring it back to them.

SPEAKER_01 26:11

Absolutely and I always like to say to you that if you're going to address a teenager or a child no matter how old they are right rather than saying you acted upset go it felt to me like you were upset and this is why let them know the why like because you threw the toy or you're stomping your feet or you're doing this. So that's why I was thinking you're upset. Like what can I do? Instead of saying why first what can I do to help? Because that kind of like well and then obviously go into the why in using whatever form of expression whether you want to rate me a story again because the storytelling giving them the choice right of why you're upset. Do you want to draw a story picture? Yeah about why you're upset depending on their age or would you like to talk about it? Um so yeah.

Tracy Whitney 27:01

And we've had to uh in our home we've had to connect what's going on physically with them to what they may be feeling internally. So I would I would especially when they were younger would say things like hey I noticed that your face got really red and that your breathing changed. Yes. Can you tell me what you were feeling inside when that moment happened or do you know what you were feeling inside when that moment happened but helping them connect their physical presence with their emotional presence with their language skills putting all that together and then helping them create that story of that experience.

SPEAKER_01 27:39

Emotionally yeah exactly because emotionally for foster children you as you know they always say compartmentalizing is not good. Oh my goodness it is the best thing the brain is capable of doing and the brain does it naturally right when the brain compartmentalizes especially in children it means the child is not ready to process the information. Why are children so resilient is because children have the best skill set at compartmentalizing. Yeah so when you grow up in foster care you're in foster care think about all the different emotions like think about this I always say to adults can you imagine going to work you really like your boss you really like your job oh but guess what all of a sudden you're packing your desk and you're leaving now but we all both know that does happen to some adults. Right right can you imagine that being a consistent life like using my story of like you're in one job for nine years all of a sudden you're moved because you told the boss something about what happened to you in the workplace the next day they move you and then all of a sudden you're moving every three to four months with different jobs and it just happens. Well how would we handle that as adults and when I present that information they're like oh my goodness I'd be insane like I would never feel safe like I would never even want to step I would never want to go to I'm like but yet we expect a child's brain who's not nearly as developed as ours to be able to manage this life and not have any behaviors. Right. No anxiety no anything yeah yeah and are we surprised when they say no I'm not doing that you can't make me what would you say right to an employer so think about starting that job and you get a boss that comes in and like oh by the way I'm really glad you're here you'd be like I bet you are I bet you are and I yeah I mean we go we say very frequently here at Creating a family that behavior is communication.

Tracy Whitney 29:30

So if there are behaviors going on it's on us then to look at what is driving that behavior, what's underneath that behavior. Is it a need? Is it a skill that's not yet developed is it an emotional experience that they don't understand what's driving the behavior and then go from there.

SPEAKER_01 29:47

No you're absolutely a thousand percent right and I used to say to foster parents I have teenagers I said if your teenager just said F you, yeah that means you're getting close crack on the back I'm like that's actually a compliment. They're like that's not funny. That doesn't feel like a compliment right it doesn't just when they're screaming at the top of the lungs and our neighbors can hear. Right. I said but what that means is if they're getting angrier it's because you're getting closer and they're feeling something. And so that is exactly that. So instead it's like I can tell you you're upset you just swore at me what do you need from me right now in this moment I want you to feel safe and I could what do you need from me if they say I want you to leave my room like okay yeah okay address the behavior I'm not saying ignore the behavior. Right. Right because obviously that's called enablement right right right that's so you but that conversation can happen later let's go back and say hey listen let's come up with a different strategy we do not swear in our house at each other that's actually a self-esteem attacker and I can talk about anger rules that I teach foster parents when it comes to children so that you have a guideline of what to engage in what not I'm like so that's a self-esteem attacker so that's not acceptable in our house so what's a different strategy? How about next time you're mad at me rather than screaming F you scream fudge budge and I'll know what that means or come up with a code word right come up with a code word and I teach a family is the code word in my family growing up I thought our code word was chocolate. I like chocolate. We all like chocolate chocolate and the the way you use chocolate in our family system it's a safe word. What it means is that you and I had a conversation we had an agreement and let the foster kids let the kids come up with the code word um that means we had a conversation and agreement and one of us forgot what that agreement was and chocolate reminds us that as a family system we're helping each other change our behaviors behaviors don't change overnight unless right it doesn't change overnight. So if a child has spent their time telling people F you or I hate you just because they're in your house that's not going to change in a month human behavior doesn't you they need you need to help them create a new neural path for that behavior right so if you're like hey by the way I think we're having a chocolate moment yes I know we are okay fudge right I'm like okay I'm stepping out now chocolate moment's over yeah that becomes not only a family tradition which means they become part of your family because think about this the goal is to how to have help these children connect to your family system right yeah so by you giving them a family tradition code word you're making them part of your family on a subconscious level with them like hey by the way if I do something if you ask me to leave your room and I'm in one of as a parent I'm in one of my places we're not perfect I don't care who we are therapist not therapist former foster child none of us are perfect if I happen to be in my stubborn defiant mood and I'm in your room going like I think this is something we need to talk about right now if you use chocolate right mmm I agree to leave and come back later okay I'll be back right so it also gives them a voice.

Tracy Whitney 33:08

So it's giving them a voice it's increasing their sense of belonging it's giving them that foundation that they that they matter yep yeah that's great.

Many parents and caregivers are afraid of saying the wrong thing around a child’s story. What do you suggest?

Tracy Whitney 33:18

So it's really common for foster parents and kinship caregivers or adoptive parents to be afraid of saying the wrong thing. I think sometimes we get this big cloud over our head thinking if I do the wrong thing or say the wrong thing we're gonna wreck this kid. So when we have that concern, what do we do about it?

SPEAKER_01 33:43

So two things one learn about trauma if you are in the foster care system whether adoptive whether kinship whether foster or even your own children like even our own children have experienced trauma right if there's any kind of trauma child like learn about trauma. Right right two learn about safety I always say to parents and I I like safety planning and I'll kind of talk about that in a second safety house activity we'll talk about that too but here's what messes up children moving them abandoning them sexually abusing them physically abusing them emotionally abusing them they're already coming to you with all of that being done your goal don't do any of those things right and I know I sound people like come on Sharon I'm like no but here's what I'm saying right and stories so here's the other thing it's so hard children come with stories that are unreal just unreal to the point of where you look at this how can you not feel for this child but then if a child is sharing their story with you and you're over emotional about their story that can create negative energy actually for them too so one of the things I always tell foster parents sit with yourself first. Allow yourself to be emotional even if you had I know this is weird but even if you have to sit in front of a mirror and look at yourself when you're taking in the details of this story emotionally right sit with you first when you're when you're giving these details and when you're able to do that and depending on your processing and and I'll talk about this if you're a visual processor a visual processor is where you take in information as you're reading it and that's the best way for you to process details read them to yourself. If you're an auditory person like I am by the way I would probably record myself reading this case file out loud and then play it back to myself so that I can emotionally take in it as the most powerful for me. Then I would sit there with it. Once you have that right then you can go back and go depending on how much of their story they know though, right? And that kind of goes into something else like when you're kind of starting to do storytelling let them lead you not you lead even therapists make this mistake oh my goodness I need to get Sharon talking about her sexual abuse. If I do not give that information to you you're gonna harm me by making me go someplace and talking about that that you're not ready to ready for right I'm not ready to share that information with you. Or if I even remember it so then if you know something that I don't as a child that I'm not remembering and then you're trying to force me to talk about it, I can make it way bigger and it can do more damage. So I say to parents the easiest thing is when you do let me kind of share this activity um and actually it's not even my activity I think it's a CPS activity which I was so impressed with I'm like wow you guys are doing such a good job with this it's the safe house activity if you've ever heard of it it's where they have the kids draw this picture and they're like and it's a fun activity they can do in your house and I was just telling this case worker how impressed I was when I was being witness to this interaction with this abused child but it's like who's in your safe house if you if you had your own this is your house this is your story then part of that story is who's not allowed in your safe house who do you not want here right okay and if they start naming off all these different family members you've already got a red flag like oh yes that was that was this person okay that then you say who can visit you but not stay in your safe house right so you're telling the no no ones and then you're like maybe maybe who can visit you but not stay here okay then the other the other question I added to this because I didn't add this would you want me here when they came to visit you in your safe house right if they put me as a foster parent in their safe house which is what I'm hoping but that doesn't always happen by the way right so don't be shocked if you're not in their safe house. And certainly not at first at first yeah that's why you can do this activity you can actually it's too bad every foster parent couldn't do a chalkboard paint wall in their bedroom. If a foster parent would do that that would be fantastic if you want to know why allows children to go upstairs to write how they feel that also allows them to erase it so they can see it. Yeah right but if if that do like a big drawing of a house and put it on their put it on their wall. So this way they could add people to their safe house and you can actually monitor this without ever asking them. Right. To see when you kind of you know see when you kind of go in there. So once you kind of get you know once you kind of take them down this path and get this information and you start to kind of see this then you know it can take take you down that you know kind of take you down that road. Yeah so if you so one of the other things to do is before you even go there to have these conversations with them right you want to find out if you're in their safe house but you also want to identify where their safe place one of the first activities you want to do when they arrive at your house walk through the house with them tell them they can lock the bathroom door tell them they can lock their bedroom door if it's safe for them to do that. But find out where their safe place is like what room do you like in here? Where would they may pick the bathtub I actually my bedroom was not my safe place. That's where all my hurt happened right so my safe place would have been the bathtub by the way maybe in one of them but then depending that though because abuse happened to me in a bathtub too so maybe the bathtub isn't going to be a safe place. Maybe my safe place is going to be outside on the sidewalk or in the garage right so you want to find first help them identify who's safe second where's their safe place when you have this conversation when you talk to them take them to their safe place. And if you do some of the things we talked about right by going shopping with the journal or by going shopping but not even for teenagers take a child shopping and let them buy their own little sketchpad and let them get their color pencils even if you have some take them let them create their own and you create that you're already building those stepping stones for relationships well before you have any kind of conversation right right you're already finding out what they like which you should be doing anyway if they're in your house what is your favorite food what what don't you like to eat what do you like to eat right you're already doing these stepping stones so my thing for parents by asking questions about them you're not going to harm them the one liner to remember let them lead you right if you have details that something even if there's court let's say you have a child in your that's living with you and there's a court case coming up I love this scenario and the attorney's like we need to get information we need to get information and you know they're talking to attorney about abuse that doesn't mean you have to go there right let them lead you now let's say something happens and they come to you and they say something do the best that you can to not have the shock factor right let's say they disclose a sexual abuse or something traumatic kind of picture yourself not you don't want to be cold either what I usually right what I usually recommend is you know for confirmation of you know wow it's okay for you to say wow that sounds like that was hard right what can I do to help see that one like it's those one liners what can I do what can I do to help you feel better right because I that sounds like that what that it was hard if they say they were scared it does sound scary. Validate and that's that's where it's way easier right validate them if they say I was afraid it sounds like that was scary I would be afraid right or if you if they share something a little bit it's okay for like for to this day it's so funny I just had my grandson up and I like I think I should share with this in my camper shed and my camper's next day we're in a campground in the back I'm I'm blessed my brother owns the campground so I get a nice little lot in the woods way in the back back here right for privacy. However this is scary in the dark because there's no other campers back here. Yeah yeah and I took my grandson out last week and he goes Mimas and he's 13 he goes would you walk outside with me I'm like Buddy of course I will I'm like and I it's true fact I'm scared of the dark I don't like the dark and I said you know what buddy I'm afraid of the dark too of course I'll walk out with you but if I have to go out there later you're walking out with me too okay deal because I could tell he was afraid but he didn't want to tell me he was afraid because he's a 13 year old boy that just turned 13 right so it's if you sense it throw something out to connect with them even if it's something that that you that you make up I didn't make that up by the way sort of like the dark but even if it's something you make up because that really is validating them. So to go back you're not going to harm them if you let them leave right if they share something with you it's like thank you for sharing that with me that sounds thank you for sharing that with me that sounds like it was scary or it sounded like you know A, B, and C. So I hope that answered the question for families in regards to that.

Tracy Whitney 43:07

Yeah so it's less about being afraid of saying the wrong thing and it's more about preparing yourself in advance and then responding to what they're sharing and responding in their tone and in their experiences experience mirroring and affirming and that letting them lead that kind of takes some of the fear away of well what if I say the wrong thing doing it that way. And again it's that coming alongside of them versus trying to get it right. When you're when you're focused more on being present with them then you can release the fear of I'm doing this wrong because the very fact that you're being present with them is the right thing.

SPEAKER_01 43:52

No, I always say it's like when we have infants we don't force them to walk right. We wait And when they start walking, what do we do? We grab their hand. We put a little like toilet paper in their high knees in case they fall down. Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They lead us. We don't like, oh, by the way, you're three months, stand up, you're gonna start walking.

Tracy Whitney 44:12

Right.

SPEAKER_01 44:13

We wait. It's like, like, wait, you know, as they become more comfortable with you, and you're right, that's the safest way of kind of letting them lead that.

What does it mean when a child moves from "What's wrong with me?" to "What happened to me?"

Tracy Whitney 44:21

Yeah. So, what does it sound like when a young person or a child moves from what's wrong with me as they're grappling with their story to this is what happened to me. What does that sound like in their language?

SPEAKER_01 44:36

It means that it's I don't even know where to start. You can see hear me stuttering because it means so much. I mean, it's that's why this podcast, I was it's so amazing. It means everything. So let me start with that.

SPEAKER_03 44:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:48

Because that means that they're not owning it anymore. And I'll tell you what I mean with that. Like I had um a little girl in therapy and I had service cats. Now let me share with everybody my cats were safe. This road was a dirt road, there was nobody on it. And I used the power, she was fine. And um, she kept saying to me, I'm bad, I'm bad, I'm bad. That's why mommy doesn't want me. I'm bad, I'm bad, I'm bad. So my cat's name was Isabella, and I said, you know what? Let's put Isabella in her crate and let's take her outside to get some fresh air. And she's like, Okay, let's do that. And I'm like, okay, okay. So I put Isabella in her crate, and we were next to a road, but there was no cars, right? And I could see if there's a car coming. So my cat was completely safe. Please, everybody was completely safe. And I'm like, I and I had a little kitchen in my private practice. I'm like, would you like to give me some ice cream? She goes, Yes, what flavor do you have, Miss Sharon? I'm like, all kinds of flavors. And so I put Isabella on the road next to her, and I turn around and started walking away. And she goes, Miss Sharon, you forgot Isabella. I'm like, oh my goodness, I forgot Isabella. So I go back and I pick up Isabella, right? Like I'm gonna, and I'm like, you know what? I think I have nuts. Do we want nuts on our Sunday? Do we want marshmallows? She's like, Yes. I'm like, oh good, let's go. So I put Isabella back down on the road again. And I turn her up and she's like, Miss Sharon, you forgot Isabella again. So I did this four times, four times. Okay. The fourth time she goes, You're gonna hurt her. I'm like, but I love her. She goes, I know you love her, Miss Sharon, but you can't take care of her because you keep forgetting about her, she's gonna get hurt. I'm gonna have to carry her for you because you're gonna hurt her. She got the whole story. Yes. And I said to her, I'm like, sweetie, this is kind of like your mama, right? She goes, Oh, my mommy loves me, but she just can't take care of me. I'm like, Yes. No, I had to do recovery work because she was afraid to leave my office, she was gonna take Isabella home with her. Because she didn't trust me to take care of her, right? And I I share, I had a share. I'm like, baby, I did that as an exercise. She goes, You did. And I remember her saying, That was a good one, Miss Cher. Oh, that's great. But that's the power of the story. So once a child realizes, once you teach a child that it's not about them, it removes what we talked about the beginning, it removes the shame, it empowers them. It's like, okay, so it's it's not because of me, it's because my you heard me say at the beginning, my parents weren't capable. I grew up in foster care. My parents weren't capable, and that's what if if a foster child starts to look at sadly, my parents weren't capable, then it's not about them. And that's actually empowerment, it's self-esteem boosting, it's all of those different things that really helps their self-esteem development and going forward.

Tracy Whitney 47:35

Right. Hey listeners, thanks for checking us out today and for joining us for this conversation about the power of storytelling. I hope that it resonated with you as much as it was resonating with me. I would love it if you could please send us any questions that you might have about today's topic to be considered for our weekend wisdom show. That's the one that drops on Saturdays, and it's usually a very short podcast with a specific answer to a specific question. So you can send it to info at creating afamily.org, or you can send your questions through the link that's in your podcast player or in the show notes if you're um on YouTube. We would love to hear from you. Thanks so much, and I'll let you get back to the interview now.

What are some simple ways parents and caregivers can build storytelling into everyday family life?

Tracy Whitney 48:28

So let's talk about some practical applications to this. Where or how can caregivers, parents, um, foster parents start building storytelling into their everyday family life?

SPEAKER_01 48:44

One of the things that you let's let's start with storybooks. One of the things that I would encourage is a nightly routine of story time. Look for books that support adoption or caretaking or anything outside of the norm. There is so many animal books of where a frog takes care of a worm, or where a dog adopts a cat, or where a bunny, like look for storybooks that are along those lines so that what happens with a foster child, they don't feel so isolated that this experience is only about them.

Tracy Whitney 49:22

Right. Creating a family has fantastic suggested book lists for all of that books for kids, and we break it down by age and stage and the different kinds of adoption and different kinds of foster care situations. So I'll link those in the show notes for our listeners. There's some great books on those lists.

SPEAKER_01 49:41

Absolutely, because one of the things with foster care is it feels so isolating. Yeah. Right? It feels, and you know, it just feels like you're, you know, and I didn't like nothing. Like, you know, one of the things I always say is my my my series called Garbage Bag Life Series. Think about this. They have, and by the way, foster children are still being moved in garbage bags. So you're they already feel like garbage, they already feel isolated, they already feel alone, they already feel unwanted. So by you sharing these stories or reading these bedtime stories with them, they're kind of wait, wait a minute, like this isn't just about moving. So that's the storytime aspect of it. I am such a huge fan of lifebooks. I don't, I do not believe lifebooks should be an option for foster care. I think when caseworkers come in and inspect A, B, and C, I think social workers should come in and be inspecting lifebooks. I think a lifebook is an absolute mandatory. One of the biggest struggles with foster children is who am I? Where do I come from? And the the power you would have by offering them some insight of who they are is unimaginable. Now, I'd even have it, I even recommend for teenagers and foster parents because a lot of times those of us in foster care are sue, thank goodness now for ancestry.com. I was in my 30s. I could not here, I thought you know, I grew up being told I was Mexican, and then I grew up thinking that I was told I was Native American because nobody knew. That was the biggest, like I didn't know who I was. Even when I had my babies, it was like I can't even tell them who they are because I don't know who I am. Right. See how that can follow you? Yep. Come to find out, by the way, I'm a true Viking, right? Come, I'm from Norway, Iceland, Sweden, Scotland. I'm like, I'm I'm on the western side of Europe. I'm like, I traced it all the way back to Norse Tribe. But when you can start to kind of get information, right, and let the kids know that, start that life book. One of the things with foster care is that, and again, a practice I disagree with, is that when you leave a family, there's usually no contact with that family. I don't have any pictures of me. Like, I think I have one baby picture, and I have no more pictures of me until I was 15 years old. So when my children were born, they're like, who do they look like? I'm like, Right, I don't know. So guess what happens when you're doing these life books with children? Their story is continuing, and you want them to be proud of their story. It's like, okay, yeah, guess what? Trauma and all that happened, but it's still mine. You can't take my story from me. This is still my story. The other thing that is powerful is journaling. Uh, I want to share something with you in regards to the power of them owning their own story. When I first started writing my story, I sought the help of some individuals that kind of helped me. And it came to my attention that one of the individuals that was helping me, I didn't realize how strongly I felt about my story. So this is why the power of a story was actually trying to claim authorship of my story. And I'm like, what? What does that mean? And it literally, I don't think I've ever felt so angry or and it shocked me the emotional input I felt that somebody was trying to take my story. It shocked, I'm like, because that's the only thing I had, right? Right? I didn't have anything else. And you know, keep in mind, I was adopted, and I do have. I have my mom and I have a family at 15, but that is my like all those experiences. How dare you! So that's how protective children will become of their story, and that's the power of their story. So by doing a life book, start right away. If you have a foster child in your home, adoptive child, kinship, like anything, start a life book with them. And how you there's formal life books, and you might even have links. There's formal life books you can get. Yeah, you can get photo albums that are life books. You can again get a journal and have them start writing down different experiences. That's a form of a life book because that becomes their story.

Tracy Whitney 53:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 53:51

That's what they need to kind of create that story. And I wish I would have had that. Like I wish I could look back and go, oh my goodness, my daughter looked like me when I was 11.

Tracy Whitney 53:59

Yeah.

How can parents and caregivers use storytelling to build family identity?

Tracy Whitney 54:00

So stories can help with more than the understanding of how they got to this point in their foster care journey or this point in their adoption journey, or how they landed in grandma's house versus living with mom and dad. They can also help kids recognize their own strengths, where they've been resilient, where they've overcome. It can also help them develop that sense of identity and belonging. So when we as a family are looking at how to foster or boost or bolster that sense of belonging, what are maybe some question prompts or conversation starters that you would recommend for that?

SPEAKER_01 54:45

To kind of bring them into your family system, is that what you recommend?

Tracy Whitney 54:49

To bolster that sense of family, because our audience isn't just foster families, it's also adoptive families. And so when a child is transitioning, say from foster into adoption, we want them to know that this is part of who they are.

SPEAKER_01 55:05

So to go back to initial, when you talk about family traditions or creation of family traditions, right? One of them, you you heard me mention earlier the code word. That's as a nice fun way to bring them into your system.

SPEAKER_03 55:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 55:17

I think I use the example of chocolate. The other thing is in regards to sitting down and sharing with them what you do at the holidays, what you like to do as families, but ask them to bring something to it. Yeah. You know, ask them to bring so one of the things that I, you know, one of the things that I do in my family said, and it's funny because I actually created this out of a trauma response, right? As an adult, this little activity, you know, I went through, you know, I kind of um went through a divorce and it was my children and I. And I'm like, what is a new tradition that I want to do? And one of the things that I did is every Christmas time we all get a necklace. I always say that our family has the rudest Christmas ever. If you were an outsider, you'd be like, those people are rude. Because if you can get somebody to say thank you, you get to take their necklace, right? And then at the end, right? At the end of Christmas, whoever has the most necklaces gets the prize. Okay. And our and I was working with the family, and I said, have them bring in a tradition, right? Because you may keep it when they say, you may be sad that you don't keep it when they but let them bring something to your family because otherwise it's all about you and they're just coming into your world. Let them bring something to your world that that they can feel proud of.

Tracy Whitney 56:30

That's great. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 56:31

But they were working with this with a teenager, and she's like, I don't know. It depends on the defiance. If you asked me what do you want to bring to my family, guess what I'm gonna tell you? Nothing. Yeah, I'm not staying here. I'm bringing nothing. If that's the case, help come up with some ideas and throw some things out over time. Don't bombard them. If they don't know what they want to bring to it, like, okay, let us know when you want to. The other thing that I think is really a powerful and fun activity is family meetings. Right? Family meetings are not where you complain, you lecture, you go over family rules. A family meeting is game night, serial night, right? Like, yeah, it is like if you want serial, knock yourself, you spend for yourself. Because even for parents, parents like family night because there's no cookie, right? Right? It's game night or family time. That's another fun tradition.

Tracy Whitney 57:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 57:25

That that can then what you do is like what game do you think about this? What game do you like to play?

Tracy Whitney 57:30

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 57:31

And again, they're bringing something into that family. So those are some fun traditions of bringing them in, and that's going to be the key. Let them, they're coming into your world, ask them to bring something to it because it's scary coming into your world.

Tracy Whitney 57:45

I would also add, especially if you are adopting or fostering to adopt an older child, make sure they know your family's origin story. For example, we adopted two children who, when we adopted them, they were very, very young. But we had a recent season where both of them were suddenly kind of out of the blue, very intrigued about how my husband and I met, why we started dating, when we started dating, how long we dated, um, what was our mar what was our wedding like. And it occurred to me as we were rehashing all these details and sharing them with them and telling them the story, that first of all, the story sounded different all these years later with these younger children compared to how it sounded with our older children. But also they had different uh perspectives on it because they didn't have the same anchor of years of of growing up in the story. They had to they tackled it differently, they wanted to talk about it differently. Yeah. And it was so interesting to me because one of them actually said to uh a a sibling who's much older, Did you know? Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And my older child was like, actually, no, I don't think I knew that. And so it was this uniting thing that made it kind of got everybody on the same page about where we started as a family and what started us as a family. For example, my my now 18-year-old at the point that we were having this conversation had no idea that I knew when I was 10 or 12 years old that I wanted to eventually adopt. She had no clue. She did not know that at all. Our older children all knew the story because they were with us when we started the paperwork to adopt. Yes. So bringing them into and making sure they know all those parts and pieces is another way that we can use storytelling to build their sense of family identity, but also to help them connect to where it intersects with their story.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:02

Absolutely, absolutely. And I think that's because here's what I thought. The first thing I thought when you just shared that with me is like, I've wanted to adopt since I was 10. I'm like, oh my goodness, you always wanted me. Like you always wanted to adapt. Yeah. Like, yeah. Like you want to do this since just that's the first thing I felt like in my heart. I'm like, right, oh, you wanted, like, this is absolutely like why? Like, tell like why do you want me? One of the questions you asked me is what is one of the things is like, I know why people don't want me. And I'm expecting you not, like, why do you want me? What is your story? Where do we come from? Like, where's the connection? Who are my grandparents? Who are my aunts and uncles? And yeah, and you're right. You know what's interesting? A lot of times you'll find, and I've heard families say this, that the adopted children are more interested in their heritage than the biological children.

Tracy Whitney 1:00:50

Yeah. That's not necessarily true in our family. There are they're all um, you know, it's it's like one of the things that has been very hard for me is that my adopted children do not did not ever get to know their great-grandparents. My older biological children did have some semblance of small relationship for a short time with my grandparents. Um, so now when I tell the stories of my grandparents and their origin story and, you know, what they experienced as immigrants in in a new nation kind of a thing, those stories, all my kids are connecting at the same time, which is a pleasure to see. It is because they're connecting. Yes, yes, absolutely. Instead of, you know, they connected when they were, you know, little ones growing up in this, and then years later we adopted and they're connecting at a different time in a different way. Telling these stories now, all these years later, everyone's connecting kind of at the same time in a different way, but all connecting at the same time.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:49

Yeah, I think that's great. And even asking teenagers, you know, in regards to like having that bonding time, it's like I'd like to share the story of our family, like our family, like your family, my our family together. Would you like to know what our family's story is? Right. And again, but you know, and thank you for sharing that with me because you can even do that with younger children. Yeah, let's draw pictures about our family. Who's like who's in our family? You know, and here's the other thing too. Answering that question, and you said that, like, I've wanted to adopt since I was 10. Like, why do you want to adopt? You know, like when like when I share the story of you know, my adoptive mother being 23 or whatever. I remember I was when she said, I found out when I was young, I wasn't able to have children. And I remember her becoming very emotional. And she goes, I've wanted to adopt my entire I I wanted because that was the first one she adopted at 13, and then she adopted two more as babies. She's like, I've wanted to adopt children my entire I've always wanted you. I was just waiting for you. Right. And that was just something that was really, really powerful. So, yes, I think that's a great of like sharing your family story, bringing the key is bringing them into your family, so it's not so they don't feel like here's the family, here's me. It's time to bring them up.

Tracy Whitney 1:03:05

Creates that unity. Yep, yeah. Well, Dr. Sharon, thank you so much for your time today. Thank you for sharing your story and for letting us peek into what your experiences were um and how you got here. And we appreciate your time today.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:21

Yes, thank you so much. This was fun. Thank you.