When Parenting Feels Uneven: Helping Your Partner Step In

Many parents raising adopted, foster, or kinship children feel like they’re carrying most of the parenting load alone. Talking about it and changing it can be hard. In this episode, Josh Davis, PhD, shares practical, non-blaming strategies to improve communication, build confidence, and create a stronger parenting partnership when raising kids from hard places. As Father's Day approaches, Josh also offers some downloads for Dads!

In this episode, we discuss:

• How common is it for one person in a partnership or marriage to feel as if the parenting load is uneven?
• How can we influence the relationship to invite our partners into a more balanced dynamic?
• What are the common reasons partners step back instead of stepping in? 
• What are some signs that maybe criticism—even subtle—is affecting our partner’s willingness to engage?
• What do you mean by “lowering the barrier to involvement?”
• How can we offer specific, doable examples to our partners without “telling them what to do?”
• What scripts can we use, or what language, to invite partnership?
• For parents/caregivers raising challenging kids who require a LOT of time, energy, emotional investment, etc., what are some helpful ways to stay emotionally connected and protect their marriage or partnership?
• If a listener wants to take what they’ve learned here and invite their partner in to share the parenting load, what are one or two first steps to try? 

Resources:

• Celebrating & Supporting Men in Foster & Kinship Care
• Josh Davis, PhD  - www.joshdavisphd.com/www.joshdavisphd.com and www.nlpfordads.com 
• Why Mentors are Crucial When Raising Relative Kids

Transcript

Tracy Whitney 0:00

Welcome to Creating a Family. Talk about adoption, foster care, and kinship care. My name is Tracy Whitney, and I am the content director for Creating a Family, as well as the host for both this one-hour-long episode and our weekly short pod that comes out on Saturdays and it's very focused on a specific question from a listener. We would love it if you would send us a question, listeners. We love to dig through our archives and listen to what our experts have to say to help come up with a quick answer that solves whatever dilemma you and your family are facing. Today we're tackling a dilemma that many families across the adoption, foster care, and kinship care space face. And that's the concept of uneven parenting. So uneven parenting is when one parent kind of feels like they're carrying more of the load than the other. And when I say parent, I want to be inclusive of our kinship caregivers who are in long-term relationships and partnerships and marriages because they also are subject to this struggle and this dilemma as well. With us today, we have Josh Davis PhD. He is a neuroscience and psychology expert, two-time best-selling author, coach to small business leaders and high-performance professionals, founder of the science-based leadership institution, and neuralistic programming, master practitioner and trainer, and former professor at Columbia University. His new book, The Difference That Makes the Difference, shows people how we can connect better with each other and change quickly. And if he's not busy enough, he's also the dad of three. His focus is now on teaching dads how to connect with their kids, support their parents, and manage their emotions. You can find his website in our show notes. We'll link it at the end of the show, and you can check out his work and see what he does. But welcome, Josh. We're so glad to have you here.

SPEAKER_00 1:54

Thank you. Really nice to be

– How common is it for one person in a partnership or marriage to feel as if the parenting load is uneven?

SPEAKER_00 1:56

here.

Tracy Whitney 1:56

As I said in our opening, many parents and caregivers in this community say they feel like they're carrying more than their fair share of the load, or at least more than their partner or spouse is carrying. And it seems like that's not just something that goes on in the adoption, foster care, and kinship care world. So why do you think it's such a common mismatch of loads between parents?

SPEAKER_00 2:22

Yeah. So I think fundamentally, even when you have parents that are saying we want to be equal and we want to be on the same page, you're two different people. It's just, it's not possible. Right. And so I think an important thing to start with is to recognize I have my goals, I have my agenda, I have the things that are important to me, and I can't control the other person. And it's also not, you know, like just it's an important thing to remember every day, right? This is another person, I can't control that person. But I think a lot of what happens is so many of us get ourselves into a mindset of, well, this has to happen, right? I believe in my way of parenting, so therefore it has to happen this way, or else, X, Y, and Z, I catastrophize. My child will never learn to be independent, or, you know, they won't actually, we won't ever be able to sleep at night, or we won't, you know, whatever the thing is.

Tracy Whitney 3:23

Or they'll never leave home.

SPEAKER_00 3:24

They'll or they'll never leave home. It has to be, or and and I'm not saying you're wrong. We can never know. It's the future. But what I am saying is that when we get into that it has to be mode, that's when we kind of become more rigid because we're activating our unconscious mind as though it's a fight or flight situation, a need, a biological need, right? That's what the unconscious mind is hearing. It has to be the case. And that's almost always a limiting belief. There are very few situations where there aren't alternatives. And in many cases, like if you think back to school, for example, you knew which teachers you could you could have two teachers in the same classroom. You knew which one you could get away with something, and the other one you couldn't. Right. It's not a mystery to the person on the receiving end. It is possible for you to be consistent and caring and supportive, and for your partner to do something different, and the message still gets to the kids.

SPEAKER_03 4:22

Right.

SPEAKER_00 4:23

Right? They do that is still consistent. It doesn't have to be identical across the two. So I think part of it is recognizing that we're putting these unfair burdens on ourselves by demanding that the other partner be the same in our minds. Right, right. And that is it's not true. It doesn't have to be that way. So I think that's the first thing, and that's true in every relationship. That's not just that's kinship, that's everything, though. That's every single relationship where there's more than one person involved, right? And and it's worth it because having more than one person involved, you know, you get to have two parents, right? And you get to have a partner and you get to have all kinds of support. And it doesn't mean you can't get on the same page. Yeah. And that doesn't specifically address what you said about the the unevenness. But I think the key link to the unevenness is that no matter what we're doing, we do certain things that our partners are not as good at, or not gonna don't care about in the same way, or don't think are as essential. And so we necessarily end up having an uneven balance. You know, maybe the, you know, one partner's really good at discipline, they end up doing a lot of it. The other partner's really good at, you know, emotional support, they end up doing a lot of that. They actually would like to each be able to do more, but they feel like they can't because the other one isn't carrying the weight. They're perceiving unevenness, right? But they're really focusing on different things. So that's a common scenario. And then there also is a scenario of simply one parent is doing a tremendous amount for the kids and the other one's doing it.

Tracy Whitney 5:57

That does, in fact, happen. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 5:59

But I'm not saying that does happen too, right? And so all of these situations though, we'll we'll be able to talk about. I think there's useful things, but it comes down to let's start with wait a second, what's in my control? Because that's only that's gonna be the only stuff that's ever relevant, and because you can't control other people. And then how can I earn the right to influence? Those will be the two themes.

Tracy Whitney 6:22

Yeah. You said something at the beginning about the survival mechanism, the survival response. And that's gonna resonate with our listeners because we are parenting kids who quite frequently, especially in the early days or weeks or years of living with us, live in that survival state. They've become accustomed to getting by in a way that just protects themselves all the time. So that's language that we already are quite familiar with in this community.

– How can we influence the relationship to invite our partners into a more balanced dynamic?

Tracy Whitney 6:56

Um, you said to me when we were, when we were going back and forth booking this show, you commented that we like you said just now, we can't control what our partner does or doesn't do, but we can influence those relationship dynamics. And I'd like you to kind of unpack that a little bit more, tiptoe into how we start that influence.

SPEAKER_00 7:18

Okay. So I think step one is something you can do before you even talk. And it's a good idea to do this. You're if you're invested in this relationship, it's worth taking 10 minutes to do this.

SPEAKER_03 7:28

Right.

SPEAKER_00 7:29

It doesn't have to be more. Whatever they are doing, however they are behaving, or whatever they are not doing. Like let's say that, you know, they're just, you know, completely not taking part in taking the kids to any of the things that the kids need to be taken to. Right. And all the burden is falling on you for all of that. But you also still have your job, right? And so it's feeling really unfair, really uneven. There is a world in which that makes sense actually for them to not be doing it. There's a psychological world. People don't just set out to be mean or bad or thoughtless. They set out to try to do something and do it well. And the best way to reach someone is to understand well, what is that world where they really are actually trying to do something with positive intention, doing it well? What is that? And the more you can let yourself embrace the fact that there is this mental model they're operating from, and if you had the same one, you would probably behave the same way. And let me, anyone with that mental model would. They're doing the best they know how, given that mental model. They might have a fear of if I start getting into this, I'm getting drawn into this completely, and then I can't be a provider. Or maybe I never really said, I was going along, I never really said this was my, you know, my thing, but I want to support you. So, you know, then I would have to be giving up my autonomy if I do this, right? It is like it has this meaning, which isn't necessarily going to play out, but right now in that mental model, it has that meaning. What's that world where it makes sense? And I'll give an example of getting into the world where it makes sense. And this is something you can do in your own mind beforehand. You won't necessarily be right, but it is tremendously useful. So, and by the way, I actually I have a recording on the website of me guiding people to step into that world. It was like 10 minutes. You can listen to it and and be guided, you know, to do that if it's if that makes it easier. But uh with uh one of my kids, you know, he was like struggling. Like, do I, you know, on his project, what should he do? Saturn or Neptune. And, you know, a week has gone by, maybe a few more days. It's been a while, and he's still asking us which one should we do? Should I do? And we're thinking, like, come on already, make a decision, right? It doesn't matter. You're gonna have a great experience, you'll learn a lot, blah, blah, blah. Right. We're thinking this, but we're like, you're like, I don't know. Well, so how about you do this one? Right? Well, what is your teacher? And it turns out he's asked his teacher a bunch of times too. What should I? And we're thinking, okay, this is probably getting annoying, right, for them too. And uh, and it's like, why won't he make and me, and time's going by too. He's not getting started. And and so, you know, I've tried, I've like within minutes of trying my old way of trying to move him along here and explain it's hey, just you know, start it somewhere, it doesn't matter, you'll get into it. Uh trust me, all that kind of stuff, going nowhere. I was like, wait a second, okay, there's a world in which it makes sense to be stuck here and unable to make a decision. Let me take a moment and just get into that in my head. And within a few minutes, what I'm realizing is, okay, wait a second. I'm like, what, nine or ten years old at this point. And uh, like this is this is my project. This is a big project. This is, I don't know, this could last a month. That's a long time, right? And I've never studied a planet before, and maybe I never will again. Like this is this is my chance. Like, how do how do I get this right? You know, and then so I'm I'm realizing like, how do you decide? Like when I'm really letting myself be in there, it's like, well, how do I decide? So then I ask the question, how are you deciding? Yeah. And then what I learn is that he's trying to know the whole future if he does Saturn and the whole future if he does Neptune, the feelings, the results, what other people will think, everything. And of course, once he knows that, it'll be an easy decision. And then I'm able to say, Well, oh my God, yeah, of course, you can't make a decision if you have to know the future. It's it's a it's a terrible strategy for making. So then I'm able to give him some guidance about how what you do when you can't know the future. You know, you think about what's important. And then we get on to, well, what's important? Saturn sounds really fun and interesting, but everyone else is doing Saturn. So I'd be different if I'm doing Neptune. So now we've got a values conflict. How do you handle it? How do I handle it? Of course I'm stuck. How do I handle a values conflict? Interesting, different, right? And so that I'm able to give him some advice of what I've done when I've had that particular conflict. Then we don't say anything more, right? He hasn't made a decision still. A day later, uh, he calls me in. We're gonna like for a hug at bedtime. And I'm about to um, you know, like usually he's uh he's gonna ask me a million questions, his mind is racing and all this kind of stuff, right? This time he says one thing. He's lying calmly in bed. He come, I hug him and he says one thing. He says, Daddy, I chose Saturn. And I was just like, wow. But just getting into that world, understanding it, I didn't even have to tell him what to do. He I helped him understand his world because I got in there and tried to understand it. And then it was just obvious for him what to do. Right, and he moved on, and that was it. We can do that with our partners. We can wait a second, there's a world in which this makes sense, there's positive intention behind their behavior.

SPEAKER_02 12:45

Right.

SPEAKER_00 12:45

Let me get in there for a moment. What's important to me? If I step into their shoes, what's important to me? What do I believe? Yeah, and but it but it's it doesn't work to just say, if I were them, what would be important to me? When you take the perspective first and you immerse in it, you activate your brain differently. So if I first get in there and I say, okay, I'm them. This is me, I'm standing like them. Okay, here I am, I'm looking back over there at me. All right, what is important to me in this context as my partner? What is important to me? I then you'll get different information than if you just stand here and say, What would she think?

SPEAKER_02 13:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:22

Right? So so you step into it and then you identify like, how am I deciding? What is important to me? What do I believe? Who am I? That kind of stuff. So so that world, that's that if you just do that, you can probably get very far frequently. It takes a moment to do it, and you might get it wrong. But you get some useful ideas and you can check them out and you can ask questions. But that attitude, a few minutes of doing that, can just completely change the course of interactions.

Tracy Whitney 13:52

So that takes it a little bit deeper than assuming the best about your partner. It's not just assuming the best, it's putting yourself in their shoes and trying to understand their world from their inside of their brain out rather than us looking at the their brain going, what's going on? What's going on there? You know, knocking.

SPEAKER_02 14:13

That's

– What are the common reasons partners step back instead of stepping in?

SPEAKER_02 14:14

right.

Tracy Whitney 14:14

Um, I I love that you say that it's easy to assume that a less involved parent doesn't care, but that there's more usually going on than that.

SPEAKER_00 14:25

I wouldn't say usually, I would say always.

Tracy Whitney 14:28

Always. Okay. Yeah. So there's more going on than that. And you started to indicate some of that in this process, but what are some of the reasons that partners might step back and give that impression off that they don't care?

SPEAKER_00 14:43

Well, there's so many. And I think one thing that I'll answer this two ways. One is to try to give some specific reasons that people might recognize, but the other is to say, when you go into this, the best way to be successful at it is to really try to accept that you don't know the reasons and to be curious because it is actually going to be somewhat different for every person in every context. What matters though is that you have a process for finding the difference that'll make the difference for them. Okay. And so some examples of things that can come up would be well, say I'm in, you know, I'm working really hard. I have this job I've been working on. I'm like finally feeling like I'm at the point where I might get promoted. It's been my life's focus. You know, it means so much to me and my status and my self-opinion, right? And right now you're asking me to focus on other stuff. Like, don't you realize how important this is to me? And of course I love the kids, but we have a system where we can get by, and I just need you to support me. But of course, I can't know how long it's gonna take and whether I'll get there, but I can't. You're asking me to give up on my dream, right? If I'm in that, right, that's that's a thing. That is a real situation. And that's huge. Yeah. It's huge, it's a really tough position to be in. And yeah, you want to support, but like I I I I believe I'm in this context where I actually believe I'm giving up on my dream and that I'm throwing away my 20 years of hard work if I make any changes in the way I co-parent. Right now, when you help somebody, when you get in there and you understand that, it makes it much easier for you to earn the right to influence that person. And you always have to earn the right context every day, no matter how much history you have. Earn the right. Just like we do with our kids.

Tracy Whitney 16:39

Just like we do with our kids, yeah. We call it building trust. Yeah. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 16:42

You build trust, you meet them where they are, you're like, okay, wait a second, this is a real thing.

SPEAKER_03 16:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:48

Like, so once I've identified that for you, the issue is throwing away your dreams, trying to talk you out of it and saying you're not throwing away your dreams is going to get get you to not listen. Because you're like, well, then you don't get it. But if I can be there and be like, wow, that's really a hard position to be in, you're probably gonna then be more open to discovering how you can and maybe discovering that it's not all or nothing.

unknown 17:10

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:10

You know, and then we can start to have conversations and try things out. But unless I know that, I'm just telling you what I think and what would work for me. Right. Right. But what matters is what's in your head.

Tracy Whitney 17:22

Right. Because you can't hear what's important to me if you're only hearing it through your lens and not hearing it through their lens as well.

SPEAKER_00 17:31

Yeah. Yeah. When we argue, we're telling people what's important to us. Right. Right. We're giving them and and if you listen closely when someone argues, they're telling you how to convince them because they're telling you what's important to them.

Tracy Whitney 17:43

And I by no means want to infantilize this relationship between partners when I say it's a lot like what we have to do with our kids. That is not what I'm talking about. I'm saying there's such similarity because relationships all need the same thing. They all need trust, they all need respect, they all need dignity, and they all need open communication. So that's what I mean when I say just like we have to do with our kids.

SPEAKER_00 18:11

And you and you and you have great skills with your kids. You are you have permission to use those skills with your partner. It doesn't mean that they're a child.

Tracy Whitney 18:19

Yeah. We want to make sure we say that because we certainly don't want to come off as infantilizing our partners at all. That can come into a whole nother dynamic of that impacts parenting so negatively.

SPEAKER_00 18:32

You know, I think uh for some people, feeling unappreciated, not recognized for what we are contributing causes us to actually step back and do less. You know, I've even I've seen myself do that sometimes. Yeah. It's just like, well, wait a second. Come on here. You're not even noticing when I am even something as simple as like, I'm always the one doing the dishes at the end of the day. You know, it's like, and so forget it. You know, I want the I want the crime to fit the punishment, you know.

SPEAKER_03 19:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:02

And so there's there's some of that is not being recognized. Some of it is that I think a lot of us will we want to feel in love with our partners more often, but we wait for them to do certain things so that we can feel that way. Right. So that it's like, well, you need to speak to me this way or notice these things or do these kinds of activities with me or something, right? Or, you know, look at me in a special way for me to to then I have give myself permission to feel these loving feelings, right? And so with the kids, and the more stressful the situation is with the kids, the less you get those things from your partner, right? Right. Because they're tired and they're distracted, and they're probably feeling like you're supposed to be the one I don't have to care for and take care of because you just need to be here with me. We're on the you want to be, everybody wants to be on the same team, but you end up feeling like you're less and less on the same team. And those without those feelings, then you know, it's like, well, you know, you it feels more transactional. I think that's also a thing that happens in many cases. The thing is, like, the reason I set up describing it that way, you're waiting for them to do it before you give yourself permission to feel that way, is that it's a little bit, it doesn't have to work that way. You're looking for the feeling.

SPEAKER_02 20:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:23

That feeling's within you. You know it. You can choose today. You're listening to this, you can have a little experiment. What happens if I just choose to have more loving feelings, being more in love with my partner today? Just let me just try it. I've done that experiment myself multiple times. And I did it as an experiment because I didn't know. I might at first I thought, well, what if I feel like, you know, she doesn't deserve it? And so I'm enabling certain behaviors that I don't want, or I'm rewarding certain things I don't want. I actually had to do it as an experiment because I was concerned about the outcome. And I've done the experiment many times now, and I can tell you 100% positive, nothing negative for me, right? I don't know how it'll be for you. But that kind of thing, we can actually choose to show up in a different state. That is gonna change many things. It's gonna change the meaning we make of our interactions, most importantly. Yeah, it'll change the energy you bring to it. Right? It'll change the way your partner feels supported and how much they want to. You can this is a thing that's within your control.

SPEAKER_02 21:30

Right.

SPEAKER_00 21:30

What are my loving feelings towards you? Right? That's actually a thing that you can choose. And you just step back into your past experiences of when you have felt that way. And it's possible to see it.

Tracy Whitney 21:41

And it also changes both persons' perceptions of how the load is balanced.

SPEAKER_00 21:47

It does. It does. It makes it easier to change it.

Tracy Whitney 21:51

Yep. Listeners, I want to remind you as we're taking in this great conversation with Dr. Davis. About communicating with our partners and welcoming them into sharing the load when we feel like our load is uneven. I want to remind you that you don't have to and you should not be doing this parenting thing alone. Our active Facebook group community is full of other families just like yours that are trying to learn and grow and balance their parenting loads. And we would love for you to join us over there. If you come to Facebook.com slash groups slash creating a family, you can answer the vetting questions and join the community and ask questions and read other people's questions and read the answers that the adoptees and the birth parents and the adoptive foster or kinship caregivers are sharing in the thread. We love talking to each other and building community there, and it's a great way to remind yourself that you are not alone in this journey. Thanks for letting me interrupt for just a second, and we'll go back to the interview now. Another common reason that I see one partner stepping back rather than stepping in is kind of the age-old gender roles conversation that are still, you know, very entrenched in very, very many heterosexual marriages when one partner has consistently been in this lane, in this role. And now all of a sudden you're partnering a child who needs more from both partners. Sometimes one partner has a hard time getting out of that role or expanding that role.

SPEAKER_00 23:40

That unevenness in yeah, like who should take it on, whose whose role is it? And there's different consequences for the, you know, the mom and the dad for not taking on that role or taking on that role, you know, in terms of like how you think about yourself. Am I a good mom? Am I a good dad? Like, you know, that's you know, the stereotypes are different and how might people might view it at work and how other people right? So there are the so you are more likely, probably in most cases, for the mom to be the one that's going to feel more that that's her thing to do, which sometimes can give her a sense of purpose and pride, but sometimes can make her feel resentful and the dad to be like right. So that's that certainly makes sense there. And, you know, with children with special needs, the there is extra work to do.

SPEAKER_02 24:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:29

Right. And so sometimes there is this balance of, well, how are we going to continue to make money and manage the other things and focus on the other kids? And right. Like, so how are we going to do it? Um, but I think the thing to do is to notice when you're feeling like it isn't right, then how do we then have that conversation? And it's not a one-off conversation, but how do I start to, and it starts with coming to the table and saying, I want, you know, it's in those moments of being upset when you shout at the other person saying you're not doing enough. All right, everybody knows that does nothing. If anything, it just makes it worse. Yeah. Right. But those moments have useful information. Um, you know, I can remember uh uh a time when, you know, my wife, and I'm someone who really cares about this, and I think I do a pretty good job of this in general. And she would actually say I do too, I always have, but she would say, You're not letting me have my feelings. And I just feel like, come on, like I'm so good at that. How can you say that? Right. But it turns, but there was a specific context when this would come up. And, you know, when when she would say it to me, she'd be upset because I wasn't letting her have her feelings, those moments. And it was, it was these times when things were difficult with the kids. And she was taking on the role of trying to, you know, get them through it. And I was trying to take on the role of, you know, discipline and and like, you know, just like let's let's both just give clarity and move on, right? And and so here she is struggling, and I'm not being kind about. And so we started splitting and dividing the labor, and then she's feeling not supported. And so in those moments, yeah, you don't like it, but when you're not feeling, when you're not in that moment, you can step back and say, wait, there's useful feedback there. Neither of us liked that. There's an imbalance that needs to be addressed. Let me think about it. Right. So so I think that's you know, that's a tougher thing to do.

SPEAKER_02 26:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:25

But if you're open to it, that's a a great opportunity to find, okay, what can I do differently if the thing I was just criticized for, what's in my control there?

SPEAKER_02 26:37

Right.

SPEAKER_00 26:38

And is it okay with me to let her have her feelings in those moments?

SPEAKER_03 26:43

Right.

SPEAKER_00 26:43

And at first it wasn't. And then I was like, I'm gonna experiment with it.

SPEAKER_03 26:47

Right.

SPEAKER_00 26:48

Let's see what happens if I do it. And then it turned out that I was actually totally cool with it. And and and the truth is, since that day, I she has never made that criticism again, actually, since I did that mental work.

Tracy Whitney 26:59

Yeah. And that's all in your control.

SPEAKER_00 27:01

Yeah.

Tracy Whitney 27:02

You can you can't.

SPEAKER_00 27:03

I didn't even tell her I was doing it. Right. It wasn't a conversation.

Tracy Whitney 27:07

I was just gonna say that you don't even have to let them know you're doing it. You can have that thought about your thoughts to yourself and work on

What are some signs that maybe criticism—even subtle—is affecting our partner’s willingness to engage?

Tracy Whitney 27:15

it. So you mentioned criticism, and you mentioned that it does impact our partner's willingness to engage. What are some of the kind of key things that we can look for that might tell us our partner is disengaging because of criticism?

SPEAKER_00 27:31

I mean, part of me wants to just say, how would they ever not disengage when there's criticism? Right. If there's criticism, that's the thing to look for. There was just criticism. And it's not that you can't criticize, you can. You can always recover, and there's useful information in the criticism as we were just talking about. But that's not the moment where you're having the influence. You know, that's the moment where you're creating distance, where there's um suddenly a motivation to disengage, you know, where they maybe can feel makes them want to reinforce the fact that they think they are doing a good job and they shouldn't have to do what you're doing. Yeah, the telltale signs. I I just think uh if you're going a whole day feeling at odds, right, pay attention to that.

Tracy Whitney 28:19

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 28:19

That's yeah, there should be times in in the day when you're not.

Tracy Whitney 28:24

I think it's also really important to look for when you're looking for these signs that that your criticism has had this impact, it's really important to look for the shifting of blame and where that might be cropping up. Like, are you shifting blame or are they shifting it back to you? Are you criticizing them? And then the response back is, well, I didn't do it because I never do anything right. And so when those dynamics start to develop, again, we can only change ourselves, we can only influence ourselves before we get to have the right to influence them. So can we think about what we said that might have prompted that reaction in them or made them want to come back at us that way.

SPEAKER_00 29:12

Right. There was uh they had a positive intention for coming back, was probably to feel like they are capable and not stupid and they don't want to be the bad guy. Yep. Right. And but the thing is, same with you. You also don't. One thing you can actually say in those moments is neither of us wants to be wrong. Neither of us wants to be the bad guy.

Tracy Whitney 29:36

Right.

SPEAKER_00 29:36

Because it's just true, right?

Tracy Whitney 29:38

Right, right.

SPEAKER_00 29:39

And so you're you're then that's something you can agree on, and it's true, and it's like, yeah, this is actually what's going on. And you're not saying who's right.

Tracy Whitney 29:46

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:47

And that can often just snap you out of the pattern.

Tracy Whitney 29:50

Yeah. We would like to take a moment to thank the Jockey Being Family Foundation for partnering with creating afamily.org to build our library of free courses. Their generosity allows us to bring you expert-based information and practical parenting strategies that will strengthen your adoptive, foster, or kinship family. Our topics vary widely and we rotate several courses across the year, so there's always something new for you to explore. You can find this library at bitly slash JBF Support. That's BIT.ly slash JBF Support. We hope that you'll take a course or two, or maybe all 15, and then tell a friend about the free library. Again, that's BIT.ly slash JBF Support. I hope you enjoy the learning.

What do you mean by “lowering the barrier to involvement?”

Tracy Whitney 30:44

So you talk in your work about lowering the barriers to involvement. And I would love to explore some of that a little bit. Like what does that mean and how can we take that mindset and apply it to our partner conversations about these, because we're dealing with some pretty heavy stuff as adoptive, fostering kinship parents. We're dealing with challenging behaviors, we're dealing with school acting out, we're dealing with regular phone calls from the school about the acting out, we're dealing with attachment struggles, emotional dysregulation. There's like all that stuff going on as we're trying to lead these kids to healing. If we want to lower the barriers to involvement with our partner and draw them in rather than push them away, what do we do? How do we start?

SPEAKER_00 31:34

Yeah. So one thing is to really help frame everything. And this is one reason I've tried to highlight this part of some of the examples I've offered is to highlight everything as an experiment because the stakes are high. There's a lot involved. I can get overinvested. This is gonna be hard work, right? The stakes are high. And and it's reasonable to have concerns about getting drawn into too much or being committed, or if I do this now, what's gonna happen? You know, and I can't be fielding, sure, I can handle this phone call from the school today, but I can't be doing this every day. Right. Right. And so, you know, I would imagine there'd be a big concern from a lot of people about committing to that. Now, one partner may have already decided ahead of time, hey, this is what I'm signing up for, because this I can do something beautiful for this child, and also and also you get to develop as a person, right? I mean, it's right. But the other partner may not have made that commitment. And making that commitment is a huge leap. Even if you've made it and and there isn't really another choice, right? And you're in this now, yeah. They are starting from where they're starting from. And so what would be a safe experiment? And it's, you know, you try something, and if it doesn't work, it's so tempting to say, well, you know what? I tried, therefore nothing will work, or I was a fool, or so forth. And that is not true. You try it and you try something else, and even if it's just a little different, and so what are the things you try? Well, that has to come from the other side. You sugg you can make a suggestion, but it's you know, you can communicate and say, Look, we we're having this situation where you know our daughter is consistently acting out and causing disruptions in classes. We want to change this behavior, like you know, we obviously we both care about this, right? And so there's various things we want to do. We but we can't control her, she's another person. So what's within our control? And you know, you can start to have a conversation about that, about you can do some brainstorming together. That's low barrier to entry, right? It's getting aligned on what do we care about and some brainstorming. And then you can also express here's how I feel, and if I'm taking all this burden, right? Do you under, you know, are you do you also agree that that's not fair? That's too much for me, right? But then you can also say, but what would be something for you? Because I imagine there is something stopping you from stepping, right? Because there is. And so you can ask, what's stopping you? You know, and at first they might try to play it cool and be like, nothing, I can do this, right? That can happen. And then you can say, no, seriously, obviously there is something in the way. What is it? Right? Find out what is actually stopping them with curiosity, because something is. And when you identify that, usually new options come up. It's like, well, what's stopping me is I'm concerned that I'll get sucked into this and it'll be too draining. Okay, that's a fair concern. Or what what's is that I'll get in over my head and I don't know what I'm doing. I don't know how to do this. Right.

Tracy Whitney 34:39

Welcome to the club.

SPEAKER_00 34:41

Right. You know, it's like, okay, that's fair. That's reasonable. Yeah. But now we know what the problem is. Right. And now you can invite your intelligent, caring partner to think and say, like, okay, what would be a first safe experiment to try this week? Like, maybe it's like, okay, you know what I can do? I can listen instead of lecturing this week and see how it goes when I'm talking to our daughter.

SPEAKER_03 35:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:08

Or I can do the opposite. I can really be thoughtful and say, like, hey, there's some things I really want you to hear. And I don't expect you, I'm not asking you to agree. It's not in your control. But I I want to make sure I'm saying it and I trust that you're smart and and you're capable of hearing.

SPEAKER_02 35:24

Right.

SPEAKER_00 35:24

Right. And like these little experiments that feel safe that will depend entirely on their worldview. But once you've identified what's the real problem, here's what I want to do, here's the issue, what's stopping you, then you can creatively problem solve. And so, so that's, you know, the more that you step into their the world in which their behavior makes sense, the easier it's gonna be for you to have those conversations to unpack the real problem for them and to find these safe experiments. But then the key is like they're gonna fail at some of these things and want to give up. And so for you to come back and reframe it as an experiment, and you know, like because anything you've ever gotten good at, you picked up and you tried again.

Tracy Whitney 36:04

Yeah, I mean, that's how they got to where they are in their career or where they are in, you know, their hobby, if they're, you know, excellent at golf, they didn't get to that level of excellence at golf by trying once. They just kept trying and trying and trying and practicing. And if we can give them the benefit of the doubt and assume the best about their intentions toward the load in our home, but also towards their child that you share with them. Speaking that language, speaking their language helps you get to that same again, it goes, I just keep remembering to just it assumes that they are capable, that they are caring, and that they are committed. And if we can assume that about them, then we can have these productive conversations about balancing things.

SPEAKER_00 36:57

That's right. You assume those things. And what's the worst case scenario that you if you assume those things? Maybe you discover that they're actually not committed. I think that's very unlikely. Right.

Tracy Whitney 37:08

Especially after having gone through the whole process to get to adoption.

SPEAKER_00 37:12

Worst case scenario, you find that out. Okay, well, isn't it good to know that now? Right. Have some clarity. But the likelihood, I mean, but that's like as you were saying, that is extremely unlikely. Probably they are committed, probably they do care, right? And and these are some of the the kind of meta messages that we want to always be giving to our partner and always be giving to the kids. You know, I do believe in you. I do have the confidence that you can actually make a change. I mean, after all, why would I have gone through this whole adoption process?

SPEAKER_02 37:43

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_00 37:43

I do actually believe and I'm here to support you. You know, I accept who you are and where you are, and I believe in you. That's what support is.

Tracy Whitney 37:52

Yeah. So

How can we offer specific, doable examples to our partners without “telling them what to do?”

Tracy Whitney 37:55

how can we offer some very specific examples to our partners without telling them what to do, without just handing them a task? What are the kinds of things that we can say or do that will help our part our partners understand what we are asking for from them?

SPEAKER_00 38:14

So, well, it'll be for each person, it'll be a slightly different ask. A little bit, yep. And I think step one is to become aware of what you want. And a lot of times we actually don't really take the time to think about ourselves. A classic example is like a job interview where it's like, oh, what are they gonna think of me? And we forget to think about what do I want to get out of this job interview. It's like, okay, yeah, I'd like to land the job, but I would like to find out if this is a good job. I would like to learn what is this a good fit? Am I gonna say a good fit? Am I gonna be payable? What would I actually get to do? Like in principle, what would I actually want to learn?

SPEAKER_02 38:51

Right. Right.

SPEAKER_00 38:52

And I think taking a moment and and getting a clear idea of not just what I don't want in this relationship, you know, I don't want to feel the burn, I don't want to be left. What do I want? Right. So being very clear, what do I actually want for myself? What do I actually want for my partner?

SPEAKER_03 39:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:11

And having some of that clarity will make it easier for you to then communicate that to your partner as a starting point. So step one, ask yourself those questions. Yeah. In reality, what would I want here? Like not just what do I think I could get away with or what do I think is possible, what am I actually looking for?

SPEAKER_02 39:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:28

And so we start with what am I moving towards? Not just what I don't want, but what am I moving towards and what is that, right? Um, specifically. And then we can also look at, is that in my control? And if it's not in your control, it can be a nice goal, but it's not gonna be a smart thing to evaluate success on. So what is within my control here? Well, I can probably get them to a point where they understand what I'm looking for.

SPEAKER_03 39:56

Right.

SPEAKER_00 39:57

Right. I can ask them if they're on board with trying to make some changes here.

SPEAKER_03 40:03

Right.

SPEAKER_00 40:03

Right. And maybe I've done that to some degree, but with this clarity, it's gonna mean a little bit more. And then I can also think about well, how do I want to evaluate this interaction? And that's something that most people haven't done. We're like, you know, if I haven't seen the change or I have a uh, you know, a certain facial expression that makes me think they're not gonna, this is not gonna be different a year from now, you know. Right? Like we read into these things too much.

SPEAKER_03 40:30

Right.

SPEAKER_00 40:30

And it's not fair to ourselves. So how do I want to evaluate this interaction? It's something that you can think of. How do I, you know, like it's a real meaningful, challenging thing. Like, don't just go into it blind. This is an important conversation in your life. Even if you have to have, you know, 20 of these over the next month, these are very important conversations. Think about them. What do I want? What's within my control that I'm going for? How do I want to evaluate it?

unknown 40:55

Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:56

And then also, what's this gonna mean for me? If I'm think about what I'm asking for. Well, is that actually okay with me?

SPEAKER_03 41:06

Right?

SPEAKER_00 41:06

So let's say they did pick up. Would I still feel like a responsible mom if it really was 50-50? Would I actually be okay with it?

Tracy Whitney 41:16

Yeah, those are some tough questions.

unknown 41:19

Right.

SPEAKER_00 41:19

And if you're not gonna be okay with it, you're gonna experience inner resistance, you're gonna push back. But so do this pre-work, right? And then go have these conversations and the conversations are gonna go better. Yeah.

Tracy Whitney 41:31

This it strikes me as you're talking that this is one of the valuable parts of a well um well-formed outcome. A well-formed outcome, but also specifically to our community, part of a really well-done home study. Because the home study includes these interviews between the caseworker and the parents, sometimes with each parent alone, sometimes with the parents together as a couple, and depending on the ages of your children, they get involved in the conversations. And the point of a home study is to help the caseworker find the right fit for the child and for the family, the right match where everyone's coming together with as much information as possible. And some of these questions that you're you're asking right now are questions that came up in our interviews when we were doing our home study. And it creates a really great safe space for self-reflection and a kind of a different level of communication if you allow it to. Now, I know plenty of people skate through the home study without doing this self-reflection. I'm that is not me. I am I'm terribly introspective over these things. And so we used it as opportunities to really help us talk about what does it look like to bring a child who's been impacted by trauma into our home? What does it look like to parent them on the short term, on the long term? And how are we going to talk about it moving forward? So this is very useful towards those same kinds of conversations.

SPEAKER_00 43:12

Oh, that's wonderful. It's nice to hear that that's that that's happening too.

Tracy Whitney 43:16

Yeah. I mean, I can't say that every home study does that. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 43:20

Well, maybe they don't. And sometimes people might feel like it's not even safe to do that because they really want to get the, you know, the the outcome. And so they have to they're focused on performing instead of seeing what would happen.

Tracy Whitney 43:32

I mean, I'm sure it hits kind of all those ranges that you just mentioned. Um, but when we hear from families who say they're afraid of the home study or they're anxious or nervous about the home study, I try to always say, guys, the home study is an awesome learning opportunity for you to be as ready as you possibly can be for whatever's coming down the pike. And it's different for every family.

SPEAKER_00 43:56

Mm-hmm. It's a study, a study of Your home and your readiness. Yeah, it's it's a great framing on it. What uh what the questions, if people are kind of curious, like to learn to be reminded of those questions and to hear more about them, then in NLP, neurolinguistic programming, we we call that the well-formed outcome. And so whenever somebody's working towards any desired outcome, we always check, is it well formed? And if not, we help them make it well-formed by going through those questions. And once it's well formed, you're you're quite likely to make progress. And if it's not well formed, you're very likely not to make progress. Right. So, and that's chapter one of the book of The Difference That Makes a Difference teaches that well-formed outcome.

Tracy Whitney 44:39

Okay. Yeah. That's great.

What scripts can we use, or what language, to invite partnership?

Tracy Whitney 44:41

What are some of the um our audience loves scripts? So we use scripts with our kids when we're trying to help them understand. For example, I am not bad. I just made a bad choice. That's a script that we can offer our kids who are struggling with behavior. Short little things that we can memorize or that our kids can memorize or that our partner can memorize that can help us invite our partner into what's going on in our homes and into the load that we carry as parents without sounding critical or controlling. So would you do you have examples that you use for couples?

SPEAKER_00 45:21

Sure, sure. One is whenever there is anxiety, the one person's worried about something or anxious about something, so often what is really, you know, they want to just get rid of the feeling. They're worried about, oh God, what if this feeling lasts forever? Or, you know, what will this do to my judgment? Or right? They have anxiety about the anxiety. And in the anxiety literature, you'll find that one of the biggest lessons is learning to tolerate it, to say, like, wait a second, life goes on. I can actually tolerate having anxiety and still show up and be present and still have a valuable, enjoyable evening, and still take part in, you know, parenting, right? And and that's also something for anxious children, too, is communicating. I know that you can tolerate, because it is true, they can tolerate it. You know, there may be certain extreme moments when, you know, that you don't want to leave them alone, right? That makes sense. But in but for the most part, we I can't, you can tolerate it and still, and that's the secret of getting past it is realizing you don't have to be anxious about the anxiety. Right. You can tolerate. And we can do that for our partners too. And we can say things really to that effect, and sure, you hear it a lot, it'll get annoying. But from time to time, it's just like reminding each other. Yeah, hey, I know, and you're not asking for their permission, by the way, because again, it comes back to what's in your control. Right. I know that you can handle these feelings and still have a very productive day. Because I do know it, right? And then they hear it, whether they respond or not, whether they get angry or not, they hear it. Yeah. Right. And same thing with the kids. So that's one is saying, like, I know that you can tolerate this and still have, you know, still do what you need to do. Right. It's just a feeling. And you're, you know, another one is reminding people, reminding your partner that feeling bad is not the same as being unsafe. So which is not, I mean, I I didn't make these up. These are ones I've you know heard and collected over time.

SPEAKER_02 47:24

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 47:24

Um but that's a very useful reframe for a lot of people.

SPEAKER_02 47:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 47:28

Feeling bad is not the same as being unsafe. Because often the critical thing we need to focus on is am I unsafe? And we're usually not.

SPEAKER_02 47:35

Right.

SPEAKER_00 47:35

But feeling bad is not the same. And so it's worth pausing. Does it mean I'm unsafe? Am I unsafe? No, okay. I can tolerate this feeling.

SPEAKER_02 47:43

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 47:43

Right. And when we tolerate the feeling, then they tend to go away. But if you try to make them go away, they stay. Right? That's just how how we work for whatever reason. So those are a couple. Here's some other things in terms of what you can say. Very often we leave out information and it reflects that we're leaving it out in our minds too. But in the ways that we talk, you know, nobody's gonna like this. Right. So, okay, there's a sentence, nobody's gonna like this. Well, who specifically? And if you follow up with these questions, who specifically, what specifically, and how specifically? First of all, again, there's the concern, am I gonna be annoying if I'm doing that a lot? Most of the time people don't notice, they just think about the question.

Tracy Whitney 48:31

Right.

SPEAKER_00 48:32

Right. But if you're being annoying, stop doing it for a little while. You know, it's not the idea. Or change the way you do it. Or change the way you do it, exactly. You know, and you're not doing it just for the sake of doing it. You're doing it to get because you're curious. Well, wait, who specifically would think this is annoying? And it's like, well, okay, I'm really thinking about this, you know, one other parent at the school, and it's really bothering me when I think about it. Okay, so really just them? Yeah, really just them. Okay, now it becomes much more tractable. You know, or you could say according to whom? And they might say according to me, and you're like, great, and according to anyone else? Well, no, but I think it's kind of annoying. Okay, then don't do it, you know. But but like asking these questions, like who specifically, what specifically, how specifically, you know, going back to that example with with my son, he had to make a decision. A decision's not a thing. You hear people talk about things like decisions or values or you know, just there's so many of these, but they're called nominalizations, where a noun, sorry, a verb has been turned into a noun. Yeah. As though it's a thing, as though it's this fixed thing, a decision. But it but a decision is not a thing. You can't touch it, you can't point to it. It's a process, it's a verb to decide. And when we talk about it as a thing, we often experience it as a thing to somehow have or not have. And that actually makes it harder to make a decision.

SPEAKER_03 49:54

Right.

SPEAKER_00 49:54

So if you just ask somebody, well, how specifically are you deciding? Then they start thinking about the steps, the process. So you hear it's like, you know, those aren't my values. Well, how specifically are you putting value on that? Or are you have you been valuing that or not valuing that? And you then you really get somewhere useful. So those three questions can really take you far. How specifically, who specifically, and what specifically. Ask them with curiosity to actually find out because yeah, usually when you gain clarity, they gain clarity, and then the problem becomes much easier to solve.

Tracy Whitney 50:30

Yeah. And it becomes something that you're doing, not something that's being done to you or something that has control over you. Um, when you were talking about a decision, it's a process, it's not something that is sitting on top of you saying, okay, this is the only way to go, and I'm gonna weight you down with my nounness, which is not a word. I understand.

SPEAKER_00 50:57

Right. That's right.

Tracy Whitney 50:59

Yeah, yeah, that's good. That's really good.

SPEAKER_00 51:01

Turn it back into a verb.

Tracy Whitney 51:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 51:03

You don't have to do this stuff all the time, but do it sometimes, and you'll probably find that it really makes it it gets you past whatever the stuck point is.

Tracy Whitney 51:12

Yeah, and I found when I'm when I'm doing it in small, simple ways, kind of practicing, then when there is a point of conflict and I'm not in agreement with my partner over something, then I have kind of already built the muscle for it, and I can tolerate it better because I've already built the muscle for it. Right. But I also can be more patient with leading him into the conversation so that he's not got all of his, you know, barriers up.

SPEAKER_00 51:42

Right. You know, speaking of being patient going in, there's a there is something else that I can offer. Uh a lot of times, like the conversation itself where you're gonna ask for help is like you've tried it and you've had a bad, you've had an unpleasant reaction. Right. And so almost just thinking about the conversation is a trigger.

SPEAKER_02 51:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 52:00

Um, and you you might even ruminate on it and think about it and like just going to that moment. Um, when we do that, we tend to experience it again in the first person, like reliving it. We just get right into it, and here's why I'm upset, and we start to feel the feelings all over again. And so a quick way to be able to make new meaning and therefore show up differently to the next conversation is to do this. We call it going meta, stepping outside into the third person perspective. So right now you can do this, Tracy. You can think about one of those conversations with someone that maybe with your partner, where that, you know, it's like still has that kind of reaction. And uh, we all have them. We all have conversations like that. And and go ahead now, though, I'd like you to see wherever that happened, that conversation. Go ahead and see Tracy over there in that conversation at a distance. I don't know, you can even look from outside the window if that makes it even more distant.

SPEAKER_03 52:56

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 52:56

Right. And you could be another person looking if you want. But there she is, Tracy's over there, and the other person's over there. And you can see there, you can right now, yeah, you can go ahead and notice Tracy's body posture and her breathing. And I see you can see her facial expressions. Let her have her feelings.

SPEAKER_02 53:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 53:12

You can have yours as the observer, but let her have her feelings and thoughts. And uh and the other person over there, and you can see them interacting. Right. And and now that you're looking from this distance, it only works when you look from this distance first. The steps matter and the order matters. Now that you're looking from this distance, now you can ask the question, why did that go down the way it did?

SPEAKER_03 53:35

Right.

SPEAKER_00 53:36

Why did Tracy do and say what she thought, what she did, and feel what she thought? Why did the other person and go ahead and notice what new meaning starts to emerge when you ask this question from this distance?

Tracy Whitney 53:47

Yeah, that actually is a really good tool for parenting our kids as well. You know, I remember asking one of my kids, okay, so that happened too, and I named them as if they weren't the person I was sitting there talking to.

SPEAKER_03 54:04

Yeah.

Tracy Whitney 54:05

And and what did they do about that? And what did they feel about it?

SPEAKER_03 54:10

Right.

Tracy Whitney 54:10

And what would they do differently the next time around? And it kind of just took the like I could see their body posture change right in front of me. Like they it took it right off their shoulders and kind of gave them the tools to get that distance for themselves that they weren't used to having for this particular inflammatory situation. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 54:32

You know, that language does, research shows it does make a difference. The you versus they versus him, her, like it it helps you keep it in the third person. So you can do it visually, you can do it with your language, you can, but but don't be shy about setting up that distance. Yeah. It really does make a difference. There's there's been various different types of research showing that psychological distance really changes how you activate your brain and and also the emotional response. Uh, and then and it lasts. So next time you come to the same kind of situation, you're actually likely to have to to just automatically make different meaning out of it.

Tracy Whitney 55:09

Yeah. I just want to add two more scripts before I forget them that have been incredibly helpful in our home. But I know in um my circles of other adoptive parents, um, the first one is we can do hard things. And that covers a lot. And it's very useful when you're wanting to dissect something between you and your partner, but still stay on the same page and still come to the same end point together. Um, we've done hard things before and we can do hard things now. And the other one is um affirming each other as the parent that this child needs right now. So you are the dad that this child needs right now.

SPEAKER_03 55:55

Yeah.

Tracy Whitney 55:56

Or I am the mom that this child needs right now. And just saying that affirmation to each other and and just reminding each other that you are in the right space at the right time, at the right place for the right kid.

SPEAKER_00 56:10

That's really nice.

Tracy Whitney 56:12

And that's very powerful when parents are feeling like they're starting to head off this direction and their kid needs them to be in this direction.

SPEAKER_00 56:21

Mm-hmm.

Tracy Whitney 56:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 56:22

You know, you and there's a couple others I might offer too. Yeah. Is to remember, tell yourself, every behavior has a positive intention. Doesn't mean every behavior is positive, right? But there's a positive intention behind it. And if I remember that, I'm gonna look for the positive intention and I'm gonna engage with the person differently. We're gonna find a better way to get that positive intention.

SPEAKER_02 56:45

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 56:46

If someone's doing drugs in order to feel free, well, let's find a better way to feel free. Feeling free is positive intention. Yep. Right? You know, so and then another one would be um there is no failure, only feedback.

Tracy Whitney 57:00

Oh, right. That's good.

SPEAKER_00 57:02

And just say that to yourself every time. Every time you're beating yourself up, every time you tried something and it didn't work, there is no failure, only feedback. You're a person going through life figuring out how to make it work. It's you know, failure is a frame on it. Failure is a way of looking at it that means give up. And sometimes it's smart to give up, but you don't want to give up because you felt like a failure. You want to give up because you decided to put your attention elsewhere, you know. Like, but if you just take the attitude, there is actually no such thing as failure. It's all course correction. You know, and so that reminder can be quite helpful. There is no failure, only feedback.

Tracy Whitney 57:37

That's that's pretty powerful. Yeah. Yep. I'm gonna share that one for sure. I'm sorry, listeners. Could I interrupt you just one more time? I would love if you could follow this podcast, especially if you're a regular listener and you've never hit that follow button before. We would also love it if you could rate and review today's episode and let us know if we hit the mark for you on this conversation about uneven parenting loads. It can be really hard to consider how to talk to your partner about this. And so we're hoping that this episode gives you some tools and some things to think about regarding that. So hit the follow button, leave us a rating or a review, and I'll let you get back to the episode now.

How can couples build their parenting skills together, without feeling like the burden of learning is uneven?

Tracy Whitney 58:33

Let's talk a little bit about how couples can learn and build their skills together without that feeling of unevenness or one's learning more than the other, and the other one just kind of lets them. How do we build those skills together?

SPEAKER_00 58:52

Yeah, yeah. Well, I think it starts by whoever's interested in that expressing that I would like to build skills together, but then remembering, not in my control. So if the other one's dragging their feet and they're nest not ready to, look, I started learning, for example, I started learning NLP, neurolinguistic programming 26 years ago. I've been now teaching it for I don't know how long, 10, 12 years. And then I spent a couple of years working on a book to try to make it very accessible and easy, right? So this has been a big thing for me. I wanted my wife to get into it. I was like, I love this stuff. It's so powerful and so useful, right? Yeah. And it was not like her top of her list. It just wasn't, right? And I would ask her to, and I would, you know, tell her, but it just wasn't for whatever reason, various different reasons at different times. And when I started focusing on teaching it to dads, it just caught her attention, you know, in a different way. She was like, wait a second, you know, and she really started thinking about, she had always appreciated that this was something that I could do. I think she didn't want to come, you know, step into an arena where she was having to try to compete with me at a game I was already expert at. Right. And so she was like, oh, let it be your thing. Yeah. You know? And then now it's like, well, wait a second, though. I want to do some of that with the kids, you know.

Tracy Whitney 1:00:17

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:18

You know, and I want to do some of that in our relationship, use some of these tools. And I think that's when like it just it clicked. So it's like, how do we get the, you know, start doing this together? So certainly, you know, ask, come back, stay open to the belief that you can.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:34

Be willing to take that as a project where there's no failure-only feedback. Let me keep finding ways to partner on this. Keep exploring like what's in the way for them, because there is flexibility always, but but not until you unpack what's in the way. Um, so, but you know, it might it might take a while. And then with all of that said, still only evaluate yourself based on what's in your control. It was never in my control to get her to get into this stuff. Um, but I did keep coming back to it, and uh, and now she really is.

Tracy Whitney 1:01:05

Yeah.

For parents/caregivers raising challenging kids who require a LOT of time, energy, emotional investment, etc., what are some helpful ways to stay emotionally connected and protect their marriage or partnership?

Tracy Whitney 1:01:07

Well, that leads well into my next question. If a family is raising kids who require a lot of us in this trauma community, adoption, foster care, kinship care, we are raising kids who take more investment and time and energy, maybe, than a typical child. What are some of the helpful ways that we can stay connected to our partners and protect our marriage or our partnership during this these hard seasons?

SPEAKER_00 1:01:37

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Well, I do think it falls on you more to start with the feelings you're looking for in the relationship than it does otherwise. Because the context is such that you're less likely to just be getting from the outside, you know, the things you want your partner to do. But it does work the other way. If you show up or your partner shows up just like appreciating you and loving you, even if it's just in their attitude, like you know, like not even saying it, but you just like if you're feeling it, you show up differently, right? Yeah, then it creates this cycle. Right. So that's one thing that you can do that I think it really falls on you to say, I'm gonna start with that. I'm gonna bring that loving feeling here, I'm gonna bring that optimism, I'm gonna start by reminding myself, I know this is the mom that this kid needs. I know this is the partner I need right now, and I'm gonna start with that. And so that is that's a bit of responsibility, but it's a self-fulfilling prophecy. Right. So that's one thing that I think makes makes a difference. But I think um it's the kind of thing where it's it's very hard to take breaks also from this.

Tracy Whitney 1:02:54

It can be. Yep.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:55

You know, sometimes there's a child care arrangement that you have where you, you know, you really can, but sometimes it has to fall on you. You know, I think the self-care um is perhaps more meaningful than ever. And one thing that I've found over the years that a lot of people don't know is that, you know, we all talk about, you've all heard you should do physical exercise, right? You should get some exercise. But it's like, oh, so that I'm healthier, so that I live longer. And that's not terribly motivating for a lot of people. Right. Right. You try it for a bit and you give up. But here's what tends to be quite motivating. Have you ever noticed that on a day when you do get a little bit of exercise, you're in a better mood, you're less anxious, you can think more clearly, you forgive mistakes more easily, right? You stay focused on what matters. That's not an accident. That happens every single time you get a small amount of cardio. So we're talking do the stairs for 10 minutes or get a light jog, but you know, these actually get to the point where you maybe start to sweat. But you can stop at that point if you don't want to have to do your hair or take a shower. But like, you know, like if you get to just that point, right? Where it's just started and you can wipe your face, right? That's fine. And if you're comfortable, if you're able to take a shower or whatever, you can do more. But not overdoing it, just doing that 20 minutes, right, will change, use it, start to use it as a strategic tool for how I am going to be both an incredible parent and a productive person in my work. Like, because it it is going to change the course of the day. And then it resets when you sleep. So it's a daily thing. Yeah. But that if you start to have that different relationship with exercise, then the self-care becomes easy. It's like, oh, this is this is how I show up. Yeah. This is how I this is going to enable me to have the conversations I want and not make things worse.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:43

Yeah. It's just like that tool, that that relationship with it, just I've seen this many times that like when people make that shift psychologically, then the self-care becomes just part of their daily lives.

If a listener wants to take what they’ve learned here and invite their partner in to share the parenting load, what are one or two first steps to try?

Tracy Whitney 1:04:57

So as we're wrapping up here, I would love for you to give other than the self-care and the 20 minutes of exercise, but not to the point of sweating where you need a shower.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:10

If that's important.

Tracy Whitney 1:05:11

Speaking my language for sure. Let's let's just wrap up with like a a takeaway for somebody who wants to invite their partner in, who wants to extend that hand and say, I don't want to carry an uneven load, and I'd like to invite you in further to this load.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:29

Yeah. I think key is like cut yourself some slack. You don't have to do this perfectly.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:35

But be clear ahead of time. What do I want from this interaction? How do I want to evaluate this conversation? What do I want? Not just what I don't want. And then you just make it clear. It's like, okay, well, look, here's what I want. Here's what I'm hoping that you get out of this.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:50

Right. And and trust that your partner is able to understand, right? There is a little bit of trust. You don't have to force it. But that's that's the key. It's like when you're clear on what you really want, ask for it. Don't try to explain why this has to happen and what's wrong and the system and all that, because then people get defensive. And you know, it's like, well, then, you know, well, you don't understand. This is why it is, you know, it's like, well, no, here's the situation for me.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:16

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:16

Here's what I want. Here's what I want to talk about. And you can even check in. You can say, Do you agree that I'm doing that? This is hard?

SPEAKER_02 1:06:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:26

Yeah. That I'm doing this. Maybe they don't agree. That's useful information. That's gonna change how you talk, right? Maybe they're saying, well, no, we're doing 50-50. It's just that I'm covering all of this stuff and you're covering all that stuff. You know, like that's that's hugely useful information. Yeah, that's how they feel. But anyway, I I think you know, get clear on what you want and then just go in and say, here's the situation for me. Do you agree that this is the situation? I think that's important. Do you agree this situation?

SPEAKER_03 1:06:57

Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:57

And, you know, what ideas do you have? And and you don't have to have a perfect solution right away, but it's the that's that's how you bring up the conversation each time. That's great.

Tracy Whitney 1:07:07

That's great. Well, thank you so much for your time, Dr. Davis. We appreciate you sharing your wisdom and your expertise and your experiments, I think are a great way to frame it. I'm excited about uh families giving this a try. Thank you.