Maintaining Secure Attachment While Disciplining Misbehavior

Could you use a few new strategies to help your child improve misbehavior? Listen to this conversation with Dr. Casey Call, the Associate Director of Education at the Karyn Purvis Institute of Child Development at TCU and Associate Professor of Professional Practice in the TCU Department of Psychology. She will help us understand how to maintain connection while correcting challenging behaviors.

In this episode, we discuss:

• Why and how should parents and caregivers work toward secure attachment with kids impacted by trauma? 
• What does it mean when we say we are rewiring the child’s brain for connection?
• What is the purpose of discipline? 
• How can parents and caregivers set a firm foundation of secure attachment if they also need to correct misbehavior or inappropriate behavior?
• Why do traditional or punishment-based disciplinary approaches not work for children impacted by trauma? 
• Why do kids impacted by trauma tend to respond better (meaning an improvement in behavior) to discipline that guides them to think about their choices and consequences?
• How can parents and caregivers maintain a safe, loving connection with firmness and kindness while still holding the goal of retraining a behavior?
• In this process, what does it mean to share our power?
• What is the “IDEAL” approach?
• What is a re-do? Why is it so powerful for re-training?
• What are a few practical ways that parents and caregivers can maintain attachment during these disciplinary or re-teaching processes?
• What are some of the common behaviors that drive parents crazy? 
• How can parents and caregivers maintain the intensity and pace of disciplining a child who has been impacted by trauma, without burning out?

Transcript

Please pardon any errors, this is an automated transcript.

Hello, and welcome to Creating a Family. Talk about adoption, foster care, and kinship care.
My name is Tracy Whitney. I am the content director here at creatingafamily.org, and I am the host
of this and our other short-form podcast called Weekend Wisdom. We're excited to dive in today to
topics of disciplining our kids while maintaining secure attachment and healthy connections with
them, guiding them and directing them to improve behavior without crushing their spirits, And to
help us have that conversation, we are welcoming Dr. Casey Call. She is the associate director of
education at the Karen Purvis Institute of Child Development at Texas Christian University. She's
also the associate professor of professorial practices at TCU, and she leads the education team at
the Purvis Institute and oversees academic programming, including the child development major and
minor and the MS in developmental trauma. So welcome, Dr. Call. Thank you so much for coming back
to Creating a Family and joining us for this conversation. I'm excited to be here. Thanks for
asking. Well, let's start with a basic overview of how parents and caregivers should work towards
secure attachment with their kids who have been impacted by trauma. Yeah,
I was just teaching a class this morning and we were doing a case study and we were talking about a
young man. who in the case study, his name is James, and he was 13 and he'd experienced physical
abuse from his father and neglect from his mother and was removed from his biological parents'
house and put into a situation with his uncle. And we were talking about all the effects that come
after that. And the thing I think that really stood out to me and my students the most was that
James didn't have from the very beginning that secure attachment, that model for how you do
relationships in a healthy way. And so I think anytime we're working with a kid who's experienced
trauma, well, they're, they're 13 or two or five months old or 25.
I think there's a couple of things to keep in mind. One of the big ones is trust when those zero to
one, you know, zero. to one years old if you have a parent who is consistent and warm and nurturing
and present then what's happening is you're having thousands and thousands of repetitions of them
meeting your needs And what happens after thousands of those repetitions is we begin to build
trust. And so one of the best things we can do with a child at any age when they've experienced
trauma is to create a safe space for them and begin to help them meet their needs, listen to their
voice, and try to figure out what is it and how do I say yes?
When I did camp with Dr. Purvis, one of the things that she would say is the easiest way to start
building trust is to give a lot of yeses. And so find those yeses wherever you can. That's why she
was the bubblegum queen because she could say, do you want a piece of bubblegum? Yes, yes, yes,
yes. Do you want 18 pieces of bubblegum? Okay. You know, like for the first time. And she said it
was a really easy way to start building trust is by giving yeses because. When you think about that
zero to one, you're saying, yes, I'll feed you. Yes, I'll clothe you. Yes, I'll pick you up when
you're sick or crying or bored. You know, yes, I'm going to look in your eyes and tell you how
precious you are. Yes, yes, yes, yes. It's a whole year of yeses. So that is one of the best,
you know, create that safe place and then figure out how do I listen to their voice and begin to
build that trust and that connection. So you hear often people in the attachment circles,
trauma-informed circles, talking about rewiring a child's brain for connection. Can you explain
that a little bit more in light of all those yeses that you were talking about?
I think the easiest way to explain it is to think about the repetitions that a child who's
experienced trauma has had. How has their brain grown and developed? And what happens is when we're
in the throes of experiencing trauma, when we're in fight, flight, or freeze, or when we're in a
stressful situation or we don't feel safe, we're using kind of the downstairs part of our brain,
which is a really simplistic way to put it. The downstairs part of our brain is responsible for
keeping us safe, making sure that, you know, we're hypervigilant and we're making, you know,
scanning our surroundings to make sure that we're safe. It's responsible for, you know,
the fight, flight, freeze, or fawn aspects of our behavior. And so if we spend all of our time kind
of in that downstairs brain or most of our time, that part of our brain gets really efficient.
And it gets wired really well. And if you think of it like a trail, the trail gets really like run
really smooth. So you can go over it faster and faster. So these connections are fast. They're
efficient. They're well-developed. They're our go-to. And then when you think about.
kind of the upstairs part of the brain, the prefrontal cortex, the planning, the regulation, the
ability to make relationships and have healthy relationships and to regulate ourselves and all of
those planning and organizing, all those things that's kind of those upper level processes in our
brain, they don't get much experience. And so what happens is those connections are clunky.
They are not efficient. They're not well-developed. They're not our go-to. Our go-to is that
survival. So when we're talking about rewiring the brain, we're saying, okay, we've got to give
that upstairs part of the brain a ton of experience.
And that's things that fire together, wire together. So we have to create these experiences and
these practices where kids get examples and mentoring and repetition,
repetition, repetition of those skills that we want them to develop. So we've set the stage for why
building secure attachment and healthy connection between us and our children matters.
Now let's shift a little bit into talking about the discipline. What is the purpose of discipline?
Why do parents need to correct their children? What keeps coming to my mind is that discipline
means to teach. And so I think that the purpose of discipline is to teach our kids how to be
humans, how to be in relationship, how to regulate, how to be in our community, how to serve
others. I think it's our job as their guide, as their parent, as the person that is older and wiser
and kinder than them is to show them the way. And so I really think of it as the purpose is to
teach them how to... live a life that where they're going to be able to feel all of their emotions,
be able to have healthy relationships and meaningful relationships. I love that you framed it in
the positive like that, because I think too often when we say the word discipline in context of
parenting, we almost always hear it used as a corrective mentality.
And really, that's not the goal. That's not the purpose. part of the purpose,
part of the goal, but it is not the sole, that's not the whole picture. So when parents are
intending to set a firm foundation for secure attachment and correct misbehavior or guide towards
healthier, more acceptable behaviors, how do they balance that?
How do they calibrate that together? Yeah, that's a good question. And that's what's hard.
That's where the challenges lie in discipline. I speak from experience.
What comes to me is I think about being a good boss. And I think about and I always ask my
students, it's like, think about a boss that you've had that you really, really enjoyed and liked
and felt safe with and grew under. And I'll say, what were some characteristics about that person?
And I think of when I had a I was an elementary school counselor and I had a principal who was
phenomenal. And I think about how she led the school and how she personally treated me.
And it was, I mean, what we talk about in TBRI, it was that balance of nurture and structure. And
she cared about me as a person. She was interested, like she got to know me.
She listened to me. She saw me. She didn't lie to me. She was honest. She was direct. But she also
had really high expectations for me. She was very clear. She gave me good feedback.
So she had this balance where I could not only trust her, but I could also grow in my position.
And that's when we're talking about discipline for children and in families,
we want to be good bosses. And so how do we do that? Right. We balance that nurture and that
structure. We adore them and we're consistent and we see their preciousness. And we also have high
expectations and allow them to make mistakes because that's part of being human and teach them how
to do things the correct way and the right way. And we push them to grow,
you know, and we challenge them, you know, when we're able to do that. And so I. To me, I think of
good boss and then I think, okay, I got to balance that structure and that nurture. Yeah. And we
also give them the tools they need to meet those expectations. We don't just kind of leave them
floundering to figure it out. Yes. We provide tools, whether it's the actions we take in our home
or the people that we surround them with or the opportunities that we offer them to,
you know, simple example, learn a new instrument. That's a tool for success that will set them up
to meet expectations and meet internal joys and learn self-regulation and self-discipline and
those things. So it's all of that plus. So why do some of the traditional disciplinary approaches
that are more common among the non-adoption? foster community.
Why do those things like spare the rod, spoil the child or spankings or consequences and punishment
or screen time takeaway and losing your phone? Why do those things not work for children who've
been impacted by trauma? I would say They're not the ideal situation for any child,
but children who haven't experienced trauma have more resources available and are more flexible in
their approaches and learning. Children who've experienced trauma,
again, they're functioning with a really strong, efficient downstairs brain.
And so in order to be able to get them to use and get practice in that upstairs brain,
number one, they have to feel safe. And traditional disciplines, spare the rod, spoil the child,
those types of things don't work because they're fear-based. They're, you know,
do what I say because I said to do it. You know, Dr. Purvis used to say, you know,
don't go after a gnat with an elephant gun, you know, and it was, you know, traditional discipline
when you think about it, it's more a fear-based approach rather than a teaching discipline
learning approach, a trust-based approach, if you will. So when we think about Why doesn't it
work? It's because they have to feel safe. And if they're afraid, they're not going to feel safe.
So it's like they flip their lid on their brain and they're working from this downstairs part. And
if we help them feel safe, they have access to that upstairs part and they can learn. They can try
new skills. They can retain and recall easier. So I would imagine then that the answer would be the
same for why lecturing and shaming or like verbal barrage, those things don't work either.
Yeah, oftentimes it's because they're functioning in their survival instincts and their behavior.
And so that, you know, that upper part of their brain, the part that processes higher language and
all of that and reasoning isn't on board. I think that also it has the shame,
kind of the fear and the shame-based discipline. Really, when you think about like attachment,
healthy attachment, again, you know, zero to one or zero to two or zero to three, not only is it.
The yeses are developing trust, but they're also developing self-worth. So I know that I am worthy
of your love. I am worthy of being a human being because you're helping me meet my needs. You're
listening to me. I am valuable. I am worthy. And I think the shame-based discipline kind of eats
away at that, which they don't already have a lot of anyway, right? Their self-worth tends to be
low anyway. Yeah, they've come to us with these interruptions in that secure building of their
identity and that barrage of words that they take internally to mean something about them rather
than... Yeah. Yeah. So why do kids impacted by trauma tend to respond better?
And by that, I mean, see an improvement in behavior when they're disciplined. in means that guide
them to think about their behaviors and their choices and then the natural consequences that would
flow from those behaviors and choices. What comes to my mind is self-efficacy.
So not only is that secure attachment early in life, building trust and self-worth, but it's also
building self-efficacy. I have a voice and I can use it. When I cry, you come.
When I'm lonely, you play with me. When I'm hungry, you feed me. And when that hasn't developed and
children lose their voice, they use their behavior to get their needs met, right? If I don't have a
voice, I'm a survivor. I'm going to use whatever means it takes to get my needs met. And you're not
listening to me or you can't listen to me because of your own stuff. And so I'm going to use my
behavior to get my needs met. And so when we take the time to teach, to mentor,
to practice, to stay calm and regulated, When our child is doing something that is not acceptable
or is disrespectful or rude, and we take the time to teach them to do it the right way,
we're coming at them with a place where they have their full brain instead of where they're in
fight, flight, or freeze, right? So they're more apt to learn. Also, if they learn it in a playful
way, we... Tuesday in my class, we were doing role plays with puppets and we were, you know,
practicing asking for something instead of telling for something. And I told my students,
I was like, kids love this because when you do it the wrong way first, they get to be sassy and
they get to be, you know, they could be the parent or they could be, you know, it's fun. And when
you're having fun, you can't be afraid. Right. So play and being afraid can't go together. So the
more that we can come in with a playful manner, with the patience and the mentoring and the support
to teach and to listen to their voice and figure out what their needs are, the more their behavior
is going to change because we're listening to them. So how can parents and caregivers maintain that
safe, loving connection that they desire while holding firmness and kindness? And having that goal
of retraining a behavior, what are some like specific tools we can use? I think,
again, of balancing the nurturing structure. But I think what I think personally for me, like what
has helped me be able to do that? I have a few, like one like trick that's not,
I don't know how helpful this is, but I used to. My daughter would fall apart at bedtime and be
doing somersaults, kicking, and just so out of control. And so I would pretend like there was a
little camera up in the corner of her room that was going to be shown at a TBRI training, and I
needed to be the model TBRI parent, and that helped me to regulate. So I have another friend who
wears overalls when she's having a bad day because it makes her feel like the babysitter and not
the mom.
So I think what I'm getting at here is we have to, we have to do our own work. We have to figure
out what is it about us that triggers us? I have all the patients in the world in the morning,
but come bedtime, I'm out of it, you know? So I have to realize that about myself. figure out like,
do I call somebody in? You know, if I have a partner, do I pretend like there's a camera that's
going to be shown at a training? What do I do? And so I think some like really specific things is
making sure that as parents and as caregivers, we have some support, whether that's other parents
or friends or family or church community or social support. And we have to figure out what triggers
us. When are we at our best? What causes us to get dysregulated? And really do that work for
ourselves so we're able to be that person that is bigger and stronger, but also wiser and kind,
which comes from Circle of Security. And now those four words always stay in my head. Yeah,
yeah, that's good. I would like to interrupt just for a minute, if I could,
and tell you about our library of 15 free courses. Thanks to the generous support of the Jockey
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And enjoy the learning as you learn how to support your parenting. Thanks so much.
And let's return to our interview with Dr. Call.
So when we're learning about... trauma-informed parenting and becoming skilled at disciplining our
children while maintaining an attachment with our children, we might hear about the concept of
sharing power. Can you talk to us about what that is and why it matters with our kids who've
experienced trauma? Yeah, it goes back a lot to self-efficacy and having a voice.
And if you think about put yourself in a good work situation with a good boss and you think about
If you worked under a good boss that you can remember, they weren't tyrants. You know, they shared
power. They let you in on some decision making. They gave you choices. And it's the same with
parenting. We want to be able to give children a voice. an appropriate voice at the correct
developmental level, right? So they're not going to plan our family vacation when they're two years
old or decide where we're going to stop and get gas or, you know, anything like that. But if we can
share our power, Dr. Purvis used to say, when we share our power, it shows that it is our power to
share because we are a good boss. Isn't that good? I know. I love that. I think about that.
When I share my power, it's because I have power to share. That's good.
I like that. And we're thinking that the parents get to decide on what's our destination.
I want my child to have integrity. I want my child to be honest. I want my child to be able to make
good decisions. Okay, so that's our destination. How are we going to get there?
Give your child a say in that pathway. How are we going to get there? Simple things are giving them
choices of which pajamas to put on or which vegetables to have for dinner or things. But it's
raising and lowering the bar based on their developmental level and where they're at and what
they're capable of and what's appropriate, right? So those small decisions when they're smaller and
then increasing that and raising the bar as they get older. I've seen college students who have
come to college their first year and have never made any decisions and haven't had any power or
control.
very scary for them. You know, they either kind of go external and kind of go nuts,
you know, and stay out late and party and make all these decisions because they don't have
practice, or they go internal and become really withdrawn and sad and sometimes depressed.
And because they're paralyzed by that lack of skill and making decisions.
Right, right. So sharing our power looks like elevating their voice to appropriate age and stage
appropriate levels and offering them choice. Yeah. And it's reasonable choices that we can live
with. Yes. Yes. Don't ever give a choice that is not something you can live with. It's always the
adult approved choices. Yes. Peanut butter and jelly or grilled cheese. Exactly.
Not a filet mignon. That's not a choice because I'm not making that.
Okay, so kind of the next level of disciplining our children is the ideal approach.
So can you tell us what the ideal approach stands for, and then how it's actually carried out in a
disciplinary moment? Sure. So the ideal response is how do we respond when behaviors are
challenging? It's an acronym. It stands for immediate, direct, efficient.
action-based and leveled at the behavior, not the child. So when we're talking about immediate,
it's, we want to catch behaviors low. Dr. Purvis used to say, we want to catch it as a spark before
it becomes a forest fire. So we don't ignore things all day long and then eventually explode.
which I am very guilty of that when my children were younger. So I do as I say,
not as I do. But we want to address things immediately when they happen and catch that behavior
low. We want to be direct. When I think about why do kids ignore us or not listen to us,
oftentimes it's because we're not being direct. And that means not sitting at the kitchen calling
out, Hey, I need you to take out the trash. It means going over to the, I know, believe me, I'm
guilty of all these things, but it means going over to them and making eye contact and connecting
with them and say, Hey, when you're done with that video game, I need you to take out the trash,
right? We're being direct or, Hey, I need you to ask me about that instead of telling me you're
going to do it. And then E is efficient. So this is the don't go after a gnat with an elephant gun.
This is don't let little things build up and then the next little thing and you overreact.
And so we want to be efficient. We want to correct the behavior with as little force,
with as few words, with as little time as possible. And then action-based is anytime a child can
redo their behavior.
ask in an appropriate way, or let's say they run out of the room and they slam the door and roll
their eyes, and when they're calm, they're able to come back and do it in an appropriate way.
Anytime that they can actually do something the right way, you're giving them the experience,
the motor memory, and the ability to be able to recall that later when they need it.
So action-based and then L, which I think is really, really important is leveled at the behavior,
not the child. So you're not a liar. You're not a thief, but you know what? You made a bad choice,
right? You made a bad decision. We all make bad decisions. I make bad decisions all the time. And
so it's like, you made a bad decision. you're not a bad person. You're a good person.
We all, we all make bad, you know, I mean, I ate so much candy earlier today and I'm like,
those were not good choices. But it's like, we all make bad choices sometimes. And so really
separating that behavior from who that child is, that goes back to the self-worth.
You are precious. I adore you. I love you. Let's work on these choices you're making. They're not
helping anybody out. Yeah, that's good. That's good. I appreciate the tangible examples to that and
the scripts because it's sometimes in the heat of the moment when you're trying to use this
response, the scripts just kind of escape your brain because you're starting to feel triggered and
dysregulated as well. So that's good. You mentioned the active action of doing a...
over again once they've calmed down and re-regulated. That's called a redo. Why are redos so
powerful specifically for kids who've experienced trauma? Yeah, it goes back to the brain
development we talked about. So they need that experience, you know, with thinking and doing things
the right way. And if they don't have the actual experience doing it, they're not going to learn.
Right. They need the action. They need the practice. They need the repetition. So the more
repetition they have of doing it the right way or doing it the respectful way or doing it the
correct way, the more likely they can recall it, the more efficient those pathways get,
the easier it is for them to do the right thing when they're feeling dysregulated. Yeah. It's that
rewiring those connections. Yes. And when they do a redo. It's imperative that you follow it up
with praise. Even if the redo was messy, didn't look the way you were picturing it when you said,
okay, let's do that over again, buddy. Find something in there that you can praise and say,
thank you so much for showing respect while you did that redo. Or thank you for closing the door
gently instead of slamming it when you were redoing how to come in the house. Pick up something and
praise it lavishly. Yes. And that is, we call that marking the task in TBRI.
You're marking what you want to see again. You're calling it out. Thank you for coming back here
and working with me on this. It's not exactly what I wanted to see, but we'll, we'll just keep
working on it. You know, thank you for only rolling your eyes halfway up into your head rather than
all the way up at your head. You know, we've, that's again, that's that lowering the bar. Like you
almost got it. You know, when, when kids expectations, that's right. Yeah.
We've got to raise them and lower them. It makes me think of like, we've worked with organizations
before and they've had a lot of like physical aggression. And when they teach kids to use their
words, their physical aggression goes down, but their verbal aggression goes up because the kids
are using their words. They're still not using good words, but they're using the words, you know?
And so then they have to work on, okay, now we've got to start working on using good words. So it's
using your words. Exactly. They weren't exactly the nicest, but. Guess what? It's better than
kicking over the chair. Exactly. So when we're working on the ideal response or a redo or any of
those things, how can we maintain attachment with our child in warm and soft,
loving ways while still accomplishing what it is that we need to accomplish in that teaching
moment? Yeah, this is a dance. I mean, we call it the attachment dance because it is very tricky.
And it's kind of art and science. You know, you've got to lead with a step of nurture and balance
it with some structure. And you've got to, you know, it's a dance. And I think that the safety,
the trust, the hearing, you know, listening to their voice and being consistent.
using the ideal response, allowing redos, being playful. Those are all things that are going to
build trust and that nurturing piece and that connection. And it's like investment parenting.
You're putting all these things in the bank. So when you need to say no, or when you need to make a
correction, or when you need to ask for a redo, you've got these to draw on. It's the balance of
nurture structure again. And one of my very favorite Dr. Purvis quote is when she said, if you give
a child structure, When they need nurture, you harm their ability to trust. And when you give a
child nurture, when they need structure, you harm their ability to grow. And so I really think
about that a lot. And I think about, I'll give you an example that I use with my class. In seventh
grade, I ran hurdles and I was terrible at it. I just tried it. I don't remember why. if i had gone
out there the very first day of hurdles and they were you know up to my shoulders and the coach was
like okay you know run the hurdles i would have been like nope yep see you later like i have no
idea what i'm doing that bar was raised too high but if i come out there the first day and they're
in the middle of my calf and he gives me direction or she gives me direction on how to do it and i
feel successful I'm going to come back and try again. And he or she is going to raise that bar a
little bit higher each time. But I have to feel success. And I have to be able to succeed and to
feel like I have a partner in this and not an adversary, right? And so when I think about
parenting, I think about we have to know that they're on my side. I'm with you.
It is my job to help you regulate. It's my job to help you grow.
I am going to ask some challenging things of you sometimes, but I'm also your biggest cheerleader
and I'm going to be there to support you. I'm going to help with safety. I'm going to build trust
with you. I'm going to invest in you. I see your preciousness, but it's that balance of structure
and nurture and being able to withdraw from the nurture when it's time for the structure.
It's a delicate balance. Yeah, I like the phrase, the attachment dance. I think that that's a
really... When you say that, I think of the professional ballroom dancers who I love watching them
do the competitions where they don't know what song is coming. They know who their partner is going
to be, but they don't know the song that's coming. And the song comes on and they're improvising
right there on the spot, stepping forward, stepping back. And sometimes they step on each other's
toes. You know, when you see these improv moments, they're not perfect, but they're continuing
through and they find their groove. And you can kind of see it when they find their groove in a
song that they've maybe a long time ago danced to before together. But this is the first time
they've done it, you know, in front of a live improv audience. That's what it makes me think of
when you talk about the attachment dance. Oh, that is a beautiful visual. I feel like that is
parenting. And now you're going to need to go look them up on Instagram. I am. Yes. They are
fascinating to watch. I do enjoy it. And sometimes, I mean, this is a whole offshoot of the
conversation, but in the videos that I've seen, they don't even know who's going to be their
partner sometimes. Sometimes it's their longstanding partner that they've trained with for years.
And sometimes it's, we're just all fooling around here. We're just having a good time. We're going
to pick random partners together. And you have to dance to the song that you did not know was going
to come on. That is a perfect visualization. Yeah. So when we're trying to maintain attachment
during these processes where I'm going to kind of recap some of what you said, we're going to give
them warm, safe spaces and presence. We're going to maintain a balance of structure and nurture.
We're going to give them choices and compromises. And you didn't say compromises, but it sparked a
thought for me like we can offer because we are confident in our power. We can offer a compromise
and say, you know, buddy. This doesn't feel like it's working for you. So I'm willing to rethink
the conversation and let's talk about maybe another way we can get to the same goal. And that's us,
again, sharing our power, but offering a compromise. And it teaches them how to negotiate and
advocate for themselves as well. The common scenarios that drive a lot of parents crazy when
they're interacting in our community and we're talking about, you know. the hard things one of the
things that comes up most often is the inability to accept no when we do have to say it so let's
tackle a few examples by age and stage how would you handle an inability to accept no from a
toddler so from a toddler or like early childhood middle childhood it's just practicing accepting
no and when they do really praising them for that and redirecting it so it's you know do it in a
playful manner and get them like you know when it's not a life or death situation when they're not
about to have a meltdown practicing oh my gosh that was such good accepting no high five and move
on like you don't want to you don't want to stop the train at all you want to just keep going so
with the the younger kids and even the kind of middle childhood practicing accepting no can be,
again, you're giving the brain the power for that. What about a middle schooler who has a hard time
accepting no? Yeah, a middle schooler where you're talking about compromises, this is where
compromises become really important. I remember saying to my children, oh,
like when they wouldn't accept no, I'd say, oh, are you asking for a compromise? They'd be like,
yeah, I think that's what I'm doing. And so then it's coming to terms again,
a term that you're okay with. And how could I maybe give a little bit, listen to them,
figure out what they need. What's the need that really needs to be met. And what could, what is
something we could agree on showing them that you're not black and white,
that you're, there's some gray area, you know, and showing that you're a reasonable person. You're
going to listen, but, and I say this to my children, even to this day, and They're 20 and 17.
My number one job is to keep you safe. That's my number one job. And if this is not, if you're
asking me to do something or want something that is not safe, my answer will be no, because that is
my number one job. And I take it very seriously. And so I think with middle school kids, it's,
it's about, like you said, advocating for themselves in a respectful manner without the parent or
the child flipping their lids, you know, being able to talk about it. When we talk about the skills
for healthy relationships, one of them is being able to negotiate your needs. And if you're
teaching them that and modeling that for them throughout their teen years, they will be so good at
that by the time they're in their early, late 20s. Yeah. And this one in particular strikes me as
very, very important for their safety when they are not around us and not under our covering.
Yes. Being able to accept a no, being able to give a no and stand by it and understand that there's
really good reasons for that no on either side of the ask.
Yes. And when they say no, they're going to be listened to. And if it's... a definite no when it
comes to safety, right? You know, there are some definite no's. Yep. That's good. So how would you
tackle a preschooler versus a teen when they're ignoring you or not responding to your voice?
Yeah, this is the same way for both, for both ages. And it goes back to ideal response and that
being direct. Yeah, it's I mean, with little kids, it's getting their hands and eyes and talking in
a voice that they're going to listen to. Hey, you know, we're going to do this and then I need you
to do this or it's time to put our shoes on. Let's go get them. And it's also doing things
together. So if you're direct and you do something like you're trying to get them to do something,
make the relationship part of that reward. You know, like my daughter is. It's very difficult for
her to give away her clothes and shoes and things. So she tends to gather many of them.
And I've been suggesting to her to clean out her drawers and her closet and things.
And every time I say, I will help you do this. It won't be overwhelming. Why don't we just start
with one drawer? And it's taken like a year and we finally did it last weekend. But we did it
together. And it's that I'm going to... do it with you when they're older, I think is really
helpful. It's part of that mentoring. And when they're little, it's really just getting their
attention. And then again, they may need help or assistance of you doing it with them even then.
Yeah. So another common behavior that drives parents crazy is triangulation.
And some of it is typical, just kids trying to get what they need. But some of it is an absolute
trauma behavior. Tell us what triangulation is, why kids do it and how you handle it.
Yeah. So triangulation, when you think of a triangle, it's got three points. So it's a conflict or
a need that's between two people and the child will involve a third person or a third, you know,
relationship within that triangle. And you said it exactly right. It is to get their needs met.
And that is the motivation behind it. And when it works. It's really motivating and they learn that
it works and that they're going to do it again. And so this happens within families, within sibling
groups, within parents. It happens within parent, like home and school. Well,
the teacher said this and, you know, like they get in trouble at school and they're like, well, she
said this and then so-and-so said I could do that, you know, so they're. It's a defense
mechanism, right? Or it's a way to manipulate to get their needs met. So the triangulation is
normally to meet those two needs, either a survival strategy or a way to get out of trouble. The
way to deal with it is, again, through the relationship. And it's thinking about like,
when I think about traditional fear-based discipline, I think about triangulation seems like.
yeah, I'm going to do that because I'm afraid I'm going to get in trouble. I'm afraid that you're
not going to listen to me. I'm afraid that I'm not going to get my needs met. But if you do it
through a trust-based discipline style or trust-based relationship, then it still happens
sometimes because kids are testing things out and they need to know what works, but it's not going
to happen as often. And they're not going to be afraid to tell you the truth. They're not going to
be afraid to... know that you're on their side and that you're going to work with them on it. And
they're not going to be afraid of what's going to happen to them or the trouble they're going to
get into. Like I said, they're still going to test it out. Yeah. And that's the developmentally
typical part of it, that they're going to keep trying. That's exactly right. And if it's working,
they'll keep doing it. Yeah. And the other thing that's really important to remember with
triangulation is that you and your partner or whatever other adult authority figure you're working
with in this. scenario, you need to be on the same page united front working together with the goal
of helping this child improve their behavior, doing what's best for the child so that that child
can't get anywhere with playing one adult against the other. That's right.
It's a strategy that's not going to work. I've also seen it where parents have triangulated the
other caregiver with the child. Oh, you can't do that because they don't like this or they said
that you couldn't do it as opposed to being the boss. Yeah. An unhealthy dynamic for sure.
Yeah. One last example. How might a family handle if they're trying to maintain attachment while
changing a child's behavior? How do they handle lying? Yeah, lying again. developmentally
appropriate at you know in early childhood and sometimes in middle childhood saying i don't think
you're telling the truth do you want to try again and tell me what really happened is a really easy
way to kind of to be efficient in our response or i think what what's happened a lot when i've
worked with kids who've experienced trauma is they'll lie to you even though you saw the behavior
and so you can say something like I'm thinking of a first grade class I was in,
and one of the first graders took some of the teacher's pencils, and she was asking them about it.
And they said, no, I didn't take the pencils. And she had seen them take them. And so one of the
things that she did, and she responded, I think, perfectly, is she said she called the student over
to her desk. So she wasn't shaming him in front of his peers. And she said, hey, you know what?
I saw that you took those pencils. And she goes, if you need some pencils, look. And she opened her
desk and showed him all the pencils that he could have. And she said, I saw that you took those
pencils. And if you need pencils, you just need to ask me for them. And he asked for them, gave the
ones back he had taken and then picked out some more that he wanted. So it's teaching them, you
know, again, it's that being able to do practice things the right way with teenagers.
It's appropriate at some point for that, too. I think about when I was a teenager and.
our parents couldn't track us and do all of those things. And it was just a different, now, you
know, they can't lie as much, but they still will get away and try for some things. Or they'll
still try. Yeah, they will still try, of course. But again, it goes back to that fear-based versus
that trust-based. And if you know they're lying or if you catch them in a lie or you think you're
lying, being able to say, it feels to me like you're not telling the truth here, you know,
and being able to have a conversation about it without. shaming them and allowing them an
opportunity to redo it. And it goes back to safety. If they're lying about something that's not
safe, my job is to keep you safe. So I've got to know the facts. And if we have that trust,
if we have that connection, if we have that relationship, they're going to be way more likely to be
more truthful. Yeah. And I think it's important to recognize kids who've had significant trauma or
break in relationship or break in trust. It's really hard for them to feel safe telling the truth.
And so we can kind of come at it proactively and not even put them in the position where they feel
backed up against a wall, where their amygdala is flipped, that they are going to lie to protect
themselves. So observing. making observational statements, making I wonder statements,
instead of pointing out the lie. Yes. And kind of disarm some of that fear so that you can get to
the root of what was really going on that even prompted them to want to lie. Yeah. Instead of
coming head on, kind of coming around the side. Yeah. And again, that side-by-side behavior,
having those observations while you're driving in the car or while you're standing at the kitchen
counter chopping veggies together, standing side-by-side is so much less intense for them when
they're feeling like their amygdala might flip. Yeah, that's a tricky space when they're on the
brain. Am I going to lie or not lie? When you're standing side-by-side, you can kind of ward that
off. I love your idea too, of not putting them in the position saying things like, Hey, I wonder
if, you know, if this is what was going on and give them the opportunity. That's, that's brilliant.
I love it.
One final interruption, if I may, I wanted to let you know that we are opening the doors for input
and feedback from you, our listeners. We would love you to use the link in your podcast player or
the link on the YouTube show notes to tell us where you're listening from, how you consume your
favorite podcasts, your other favorite podcasts, what topics you're most interested in learning
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foster care, or kinship care, and where you are in your adoption, foster care, or kinship care
journey. want to tell us about any of those topics, we want to hear about it.
So if you could do that at the end of this interview, we would love to hear from you.
Thanks so much. And we'll return for the last portion of our interview with Dr. Call.
So all of this is really hard work. Maintaining a secure attachment with our kids while we're
helping them improve their behaviors and scaffolding them to choose wisely and choose safely is
exhausting and consuming. What do you recommend to parents and caregivers that will help them
maintain that intensity and that pace, like keeping up with their kids without burning out?
Yeah, I think in that. question the word that stands out to me is intensity because it is so
intense and sometimes a hundred percent of the time. And so I think again,
it's having a support network and finding ways to connect that are like authentic and real to you
that actually bring you joy. And once you can kind of find joy and playfulness and connection with
your child, it makes things so much easier when it's not this constant. battle,
when you can listen to them, provide safe place, have fun with them, really come to value them.
And I know some parents who, because the work is so hard, get so burned out and it's hard for them
to find that joy. It's hard for them to find the playfulness and they're exhausted and they need to
recoup. You know, they need to sleep and they need to have people they can talk to and they need to
explore what are their own. things that are weighing heavy on their heart and in their brains and,
and really think about, you know, that's the putting the oxygen mask on first before you can,
because once you're in a healthy or semi-healthy place, you are able to help your child regulate.
You're able to provide, to listen to them, to see what that need is beneath that behavior and to,
to find joy in the connection and in the play.
I would add to focus on only one or two of their behaviors at a time. Do not try and go after all
the things. You listen to the show, you feel equipped, and I'm going to try the ideal response.
Just pick one. Just pick one, start small, start easy. Pick one where both you and your child can
feel success at the improvements that you get to make together. And then pick another one. Yes.
And I would also add, you had mentioned at the beginning of the list of things to try, you know,
creating a community around you where you feel seen and heard. Sometimes you may need to leverage
that community for help. whether it's someone to come in and watch the kids or someone to do your
laundry or someone, you know, especially if you're in the heat of some really challenging behaviors
that you need to, you know, because of the nature of the behavior, you may need to deal with them
really intensely and really soon. Set some stuff up in place first to set you all up for success.
And that would include some of the practical things about running your home and taking care of you
know your partner and your other kids that you can offload even if it's just for a short time
that's because this is really hard work this is really hard work Dr. Call, thank you for your time
and for your wisdom and for your vulnerable, honest sharing about your own experiences in this
journey of maintaining attachment with our kids while we're correcting behavior. I so appreciate
all of the things that you shared with us today, and I look forward to talking to you again. Thank
you so much.