Kinship Caregiving - Managing Relationships with the Child's Parents

One of the hardest parts of being a kinship caregiver is navigating the relationship with the child’s birth parent. We talk with Dr. Joseph Crumbley, a social worker, family therapist, and author of “An Overview of Kinship Care.”

In this episode, we cover:

• Creating a Family listening sessions with kinship caregivers in rural counties.
• What are some of the complicating factors in the relationship between kinship caregivers and the child’s parents?
• Grandparents and other caregivers sometimes feel that the child’s parents will threaten them with taking the child away if they do something that the parent disapproves of.
• How to not enable the child’s parent but still have a relationship.
• How to set healthy boundaries for the caregiver’s and child’s best interest when you have years of experience not setting healthy boundaries?
• How to handle others in the family who interfere with the boundaries you’ve established?
• I don’t know if this is a question, but I really struggle with getting my kids opportunities to see their mom and siblings. All other siblings have been reunited, and I gather it’s painful for their mom to see the two that were adopted by us (she surrendered her rights). Although we live relatively close to them, we have only managed 2-3 visits a year, mostly because of long periods of no responses to my texts or last-minute cancellations of planned visits. Sometimes our adopted kids can’t even remember their siblings’ names and it just breaks my heart. I’d love for them to have a closer relationship, but I have only limited control.
• How to handle the anger, shame, guilt you feel at the child’s parents?
• How to support co-parenting when the child’s parent is still not in a healthy place?
• How to support reunification?

For more information please refer to www.drcrumbley.com.

Transcript

Please pardon any errors, this is an automated transcript.
Dawn Davenport  0:00  
This is Creating a Family. Talk about foster, adoptive and kinship care. Welcome back to our regulars. We wouldn't be here without you. And also, welcome to the you listeners, because we want to grow, we want to reach more people, and we really appreciate you joining us. And if you haven't done so, please subscribe to the podcast, just click on whatever app you're using. Just click subscribe. I'm Dawn Davenport. I am both the host of this show as well as the director of the nonprofit creating a family.org Today we're going to be talking about kinship care, but specifically, we're going to be talking about one of the hardest aspects of kinship care, and that is managing the relationships with the child's parents, meaning that whoever the kinship caregiver is usually has an ongoing relationship with the child's parents, and that is a relationship that can be fraught. To put it mildly, today we're going to be talking with Dr Joseph Crumbley. Dr Crumbley is a social worker. He is a family therapist who specializes in kinship care, and he is the author of a book called An Overview of Kinship Care. But maybe most importantly, he is a kinship caregiver himself. We have done a lot with Dr Crumbley over the years. He's truly one of my favorite people to talk with. I'm sure he doesn't really like this, but I often call him the grandfather of kinship care because he's been doing it for so long. He has so much wisdom. I really think you're going to enjoy this show. It is a rear of a show we did a couple of years ago, but I can't get enough of Dr Crumbley, and I think after listening to this, you will see why. I hope you enjoy. Welcome Dr Crumbley to Creating a Family.

Speaker 1  1:49  
Oh Dawn. Thank you so much for having me. It's a pleasure. Thank you. I

Dawn Davenport  1:53  
am so excited to be talking with you. I heard you long, long time ago. Well actually, I don't, not that long ago, but I heard you a while back speaking. I had a conference, and I honestly don't remember what conferences was, and I thought, oh my gosh, he knows so much about this topic. And so to have you for to allow me to pick your brains is something I'm very excited about. So thank you. Oh, thank you. I feel honored creating a family provides education and support for foster families, adoptive families and kinship families. And a couple of years ago, really a year and a half or so ago, we were think, trying to think through services that would be best for kinship families. And we thought at some point, you know, we really need to hold some listening sessions and talk to families themselves. So we did that, and we actually held the listening sessions at the end of fall of 2021, and it was so much we did six listening sessions, and we did it in two rural counties in western North Carolina. But I suspect that what we found would be very similar. It might there be probably some differences in urban counties only because of availability of resources. But other than that, I think that what we found would be very similar, and one of the things that we heard loud and clear, that was not a surprise to us at all, was that one of the greatest sticking points for kinship caregivers and in and our listening sessions, the vast majority were grandparents, with a few great grandparents. We also had, you know, a few aunts and uncles and things, but but for the most part, it was overwhelmingly grandparents, which also was reflected nationally as well, and overwhelmingly one of their most difficult issues was how to navigate the relationship with their child, their grandchild's parent, and do you see that as an issue throughout the US as well?

Speaker 1  3:50  
Yeah, it's, it's, you find this interesting the US and it's global.

Dawn Davenport  3:56  
Well, it doesn't surprise me.

Unknown Speaker  4:00  
Yeah, that makes sense to you, doesn't it? Yeah? Families

Dawn Davenport  4:03  
are families of families, you know? And it's Yeah, and the we didn't, well, we did not track this in our in our listening sessions. But the overwhelming reason throughout the US, and it would same would be, the absolute same would be our listening sessions, was that substance abuse was the predominant reason for grandparents having stepped in to raise the children. Is that what you see nationally as well,

Speaker 1  4:31  
that's happening nationally and globally. Yeah, well, what makes it, what helps you cope with it is that you've got the grand family stepping up, Grandpa stepping up, and you have caregivers stepping up, drug trafficking, trafficking, drug issues. It's a national it's an international issue. It's happening in all countries globally. Believe and and the strength is families are stepping up. Yeah, that's true. Governments are starting to realize that families raise children better than institutions, yep, yep, just as they are in the United States. United States is realizing here, yeah, that you've got to support relative caregivers, because the outcomes for children aging out of foster care are not very positive. They're very negative outcomes. So you're right. It's and the issue, it's the strength that families step up. But also one of the challenges is, at the same time, is having to deal with families, family members, having to deal with each other. Yeah, yeah. Outside of the issue of concrete services like food, clothes, shelter, right? Those can be real challenging issues. The next challenging issue is, how do I work within the family with the birth parents?

Dawn Davenport  5:52  
Yeah? So what are what we said families are families, and that makes it complicated. But specifically, what are some of the complicating factors in the relationship between the kinship caregiver and the child's parent?

Speaker 1  6:05  
Well, one of the things that's unique about kinship care is that there are pre existing history there's pre existing relationships between the caregiver, the birth parent and the birth child. In fact, that's what makes kinship care so different from non relative foster care and adoption. There's no previous existing relationship.

Dawn Davenport  6:30  
It also is what is one of the strengths too. That is also one of the strengths

Speaker 1  6:35  
exactly, there's a pre existing relationship, you know. So there's pre existing attachments and legacies and loyalties and histories, those are the strengths, but at the same time, the downside is that you now have to change those pre existing relationships, because when a caregiver was once an aunt, uncle, grandparent, they're now in the role as a parent, that parent who was once in the role of being primary caregiver is now secondary caregiver. The child's sense of loyalty and the child's sense of hierarchy that's now shifted because of the care of the relative, now becoming the primary caregiver. So it's those shifts in pre existing relationships that's one of the challenges in kinship care. And there's loss with that. Yeah, there's hurt with that. There's loss of credibility with that. There's loss of hierarchy, there's loss of loyalty. The challenges that people in kinship care tend to think that they have the same rights and entitlements that they had before the child went into kinship care, and that can become a problem,

Dawn Davenport  7:50  
meaning that the child's parents think that they still have the same rights.

Speaker 1  7:54  
You hit it right on the head, right? Yeah, that's it. Dawn. They think they have the same power, the same rights, the thing with authority, okay? And now that they have to delegate that to the grandparent who is their mother or their father, it's usually their mother that can become a problem because there's a whole loss, and again, that change in relationships, it can also be hard for the grandparents as well, because they've also gotten used to a certain relationship with the birth parent as well. So now they are expecting sometimes it'll be the grandparent who will expect the birth parent to still maintain the role as parent.

Dawn Davenport  8:36  
And even though they're clear that they mean on a on an intellectual basis are clear that they're that they wouldn't be there if the person was able, if the parent was able. But it's still, it's, it's hard, you know. And I think one of the things that's that adds complications to it is it brings in so many emotions from the kinship caregiver standpoint, if they are the parent of this, of the child. So it's a grandparent carrying, you know, there's Why is, you know, what did I do that made my child not able to be able to be a functioning parent? What? And then anger, too. Why? You know, I, you know, I'm 78 I don't want to be or I'm 68 or I'm 58 and I don't want to be doing this, even though most of them are willingly doing it, thank goodness. But there's, there's so many conflicting emotions that the same time you're trying to navigate this, you're mad as the dickens at the at the person. Oftentimes,

Speaker 1  9:33  
I think, for relative caregivers, it's important to know, or this is embarrassing for me to say, but the professionals, the social social workers, and you can relate to this 3040, years ago, we didn't expect caregivers to have these kinds of feelings. We didn't expect them to feel ambivalent. In fact, we expected them to want to do it and. Be glad to do it, be proud to do it and do it for free. Well,

Dawn Davenport  10:06  
that's still that

Speaker 1  10:11  
last part. That's right. And what we didn't realize is that the caregivers, who, as you said, are usually the grandparents, who are usually the parents of the birth parents are going to feel ambivalent. They're going to feel some resentment, because now they've lost and changed their entire lifestyle and goals change. There may be some guilt as well, okay, in terms of, is it my fault, as you said, is it my fault? Is this something that I did wrong? Is this something I should have done differently, which, again, is one of the strengths of kinship care. You are better the second time around, sure.

Dawn Davenport  10:47  
And we've heard that from our grandparents, that this was a this was a do over in some ways. And yeah, I mean, so yeah, we definitely heard that as well. And

Speaker 1  10:59  
the guilt can come from but that means maybe I didn't do a good job the first time. Okay, so it's win Yang, yeah, two way sword, right?

Dawn Davenport  11:07  
Okay, so much in this area. And yet, the reality is, people struggle with substance abuse, even when with the best of parents. And so you do, we do want caregivers to know that oftentimes there's nothing you could have done That's right. Do you see a difference at all between the relationship between the kinship caregiver and the child's parents, depending on whether or not Child Welfare has been involved, which we can call formal kinship care, versus grandparents stepping in before Child Welfare was involved, which we call informal kinship care. Do you see any distinction in that relationship?

Speaker 1  11:52  
There's that issue that the distinction that I've seen over the years has been related to the stigma that you can avoid if you are doing it informally, because there's a stigma that frequently comes with taking the children formally, because you now have a system involved, an agency involved, there's a level of embarrassment, there's a level of shame that that caregiver can feel. There's a level of intrusion, yeah, that that caregiver can experience big level of intrusion. So the intrusion, the embarrassment, the shame, the feeling of of guilt, even seems to increase because the agency, because professionals are starting to look at, okay, you're doing this, it's great that you're doing this, but what was wrong with you and your family? So it's that kind of feeling that can come from doing it formally, as opposed to informally. So there are some feelings that can come from being agency involved. And there's the accountability, you know that the caregivers also have to feel that there's a loss of control and power, sure, in terms of of visitations, of contacts, where you can go other families being involved in, there's a whole list of criminal background checks and and you know that that they then have to submit themselves as well as other family members. So I find that for a lot of relative caregivers, frequently, there's there's a preference for informal, but then lots of times, there's a preference for formal when they're starting to have to deal with issues of safety. Yeah,

Dawn Davenport  13:35  
I was wondering that. It seems to me that we think this is going to be a recurring theme here, that it cuts both ways. Yes, one, you have the state involved in your business, you know, and so you know, that's not how you know. No, you're not allowed to do this. Or, Yes, a child has to have a room to themselves, or whatever. You've got somebody else sticking their nose in your business. And that's and that is often something that parents, grandparents, rather, are not looking for. On the other hand, the the state could be the bad guy, you know, when it comes to their relationship with their adult child, they could say, No, you can't take them for the weekend. Because, you know, the the case worker involved has said that, you know, you have to, has to be supervised visits and with the informal it's the grandparent that has to step up and say, you know, I don't want you driving with them, because I don't trust that you're that you're not high right now or and I don't want to match your house because I don't know who's going to be there. And so in some ways, the state involvement can make it easier to set firm boundaries. On the other hand, the state will set firm boundaries even when the grandparent might think he's doing better. I think that it would help. I would think it would help him if he has his child with him, you know, more often, you know, so you got somebody dictating on, yeah,

Speaker 1  14:57  
there is kind of a formula that I've seen. Caregivers use for figuring out which way should I go, formal versus informal. And the formula kind of sounds like, the more authority you need, the more tense the relationship is with the birth parent, the more safety the child may need. Then you may need to consider going more formal interesting. So if you start using that as a criteria, that can sometimes give you some structure to how do I make that decision? So if, yeah, so if, for example, if your relationship with that birth parent is very positive and they're willing to sign over authority, okay? Or willing to accompany you to the doctor's appointment to the school appointment. Are willing to accept your rules and your structure about visitations and contacts, okay? The more that they're consistent with how you raise the children you know, then the less formal it needs to be. The more conflict there is, the more argument they are, the more triangulation, where the children getting caught up in the middle, where there's more contradiction before, the more formal you may need to go. That

Dawn Davenport  16:13  
makes sense. Also, I would throw in their money, because, if Yeah, money, because with formal care, you should be able to get monthly subsidies, you're

Speaker 1  16:24  
right. And for a lot of relative caregivers, sometimes that's the determining factor, sure. Yeah, absolutely, I can't afford to keep this child without having to become a foster parent or an adoptive parent,

Dawn Davenport  16:35  
right? Yeah, absolutely. Let me pause here for a minute to tell you about a free educational resource thanks to our partner, the choco bean family foundation, we have 12 free online courses available now for you to use to access and they come with certificates of completion. You find them at Bitly slash, JBf support, that's B, i, t, dot, o, y, slash, JBf, support. We have lots of titles. One of them is handling social media as an adoptive, foster or a kinship parent. But we have others as well. Be sure to tell a friend about the free courses too. One of the we heard through in our listening sessions, a couple of the things that we heard were from our kinship caregivers. And I said, in our case, they were almost all grandparents. They felt like, some of them said they they felt like they were walking on eggshells when dealing with their adult children, or that their adult children had them over the barrel. These were in informal situations, but they and they didn't have good legal permanency established. So they felt like if they had to appease their adult children, because if they didn't, the adult children will come and take the grandchildren away. And they knew that they're that that would be not in the best interest of the child. So they were, they felt very much that they were, as I said, walking on eggshells. Have you heard that as well in your work? Yeah.

Speaker 1  18:08  
And sometimes that becomes the criteria for deciding to stay informal versus formal,

Dawn Davenport  18:14  
or going formal, because they are going formal, yeah, exactly, however, yeah, you may not be able to get the formal

Speaker 1  18:20  
Exactly, exactly, yeah, you know, even if you can't get it, but then you lean more towards, I need to go formal, because I'm walking on eggshells, yeah? And, and the child's safety is at risk, exactly,

Dawn Davenport  18:32  
and they feel like the child's safety is at risk, yeah?

Speaker 1  18:37  
And the child can be just pulled out and not have food, clothes, shelter, you know at that point. Yeah, so for the caregiver, it's a tough decision. Sometimes it's a matter of choosing. Here's one of the challenges in kinship care. It may have to boil down to placing the needs of the children over that of the birth parent. See a caregiver, initial attachment is with the birth parent. They knew the birth parent before they knew the child, right?

Dawn Davenport  19:04  
The initial parent was their child. It was

Speaker 1  19:08  
a baby. Yeah? Thank you. Yeah. That's one of the challenges in kinship care, that that attachment good, bad or indifferent, regardless of how the relationship is and arguing your initial attachment was with that birth parent, and now you now have to change that and put the child's needs before that of the birth parents. To me, that's one of the most difficult challenges for relative caregivers, that you don't have an adoption. You don't have that in foster care, no non relative. Foster Care, non relative. But in kinship care, you do so a lot of times it's living with the guilt, because it doesn't go away. You feel like you're betraying sure times you have to place the need, and the birth parents will just as, just as they'll just, just as though, just as they're also walking on eggs around authority. You. They can also push that, that button of you knew me first,

Dawn Davenport  20:06  
sure, why don't you trust me? I, you know, this is what I I'm not. I'm just, I just want to take them to, you know, take them to McDonald's or I, yeah, it's the you know, as all of us who've raised teens have heard, why don't you trust me? You know, yeah, and if

Speaker 1  20:22  
you're involved with the system, how can you put that worker, you know, to take their word over me? Or, how about this one, how can you put the needs of the child over me? You knew me first. I'm your child too. And so for that kid, what the challenge for caregivers is kind of like just what you said, know your Achilles heel, know your know those issues that will push your buttons, be aware of those triggers and then develop a response. And how are you going to manage those triggers? You got to be able to have a response for well, how can you put me out? I lived here. You knew me first. How could you put the child before me? How can you not trust me? All those phrases, that's the, that's, that's the what caregivers have to kind of put together. You know, knowing what your weak spots are, knowing what your triggers are, knowing what, knowing what your vulnerabilities are, yes, and I'm not saying that birth parents are bad. You know what I mean? You know it's not like they're sitting and sitting around now. How can I push her a button? They do it instinctively. Okay?

Dawn Davenport  21:32  
They have, as you said at the beginning, they've had a lifetime of setting up patterns of behaviors and breaking patterns of behaviors is tough. It takes a lot of effort and a lot of consciousness, bringing it to the front part of your brain so that exactly you know the base part of your brain, which kind of just goes into rote about right. They pitch a fit because they say, I don't trust them. They say, I've never understood them. And I say, I trying to understand you. I'm trying to tell me what it is. And then they say, I want this. And you say, well, it's easier to give in all those were patterns that we've set up, you know, throughout their lifetime,

Speaker 1  22:14  
right? Exactly. And now you have to change them, yeah, for the best interest of the child and for the best interest of the child and the birth parent, cannot help but feel as though you've

Dawn Davenport  22:24  
betrayed them, right? And cannot help trying to make the old pattern work again, come back again. And I'm singing the same song, and now you're changing the ending song, and I don't like it, yeah? And I'm

Speaker 1  22:34  
going to wear you down. So it's about living with see, and the thing is, you're not going to change their feeling. It's about you learning how to live with the guilt, yes, so that you don't break down. Yes, yeah, in the best interest of the child, that's the that's the new strength that caregivers have to develop.

Dawn Davenport  22:52  
And if that had been an easy strength for them to develop, they would have been doing it all along. And many of them, many of them, have been doing it. They did, you know, great job. They were doing it all along. But also, you know, they may not have done it in the past, and so now having to do it now, it's like, yeah, we're, you know, it's hard. Do you see a difference if the kinship caregiver is a grandparent, which we've both said is the majority. The statistics in the US would probably worldwide, would be that it's most of the grandparents, but they're also aunts, uncles, cousins. Anecdotally, this is not based on research, but we run a really large online support group. And anecdotally, what we have seen is that there seems to be more resentment and anger towards birth parents when it is a sibling, it's if, most often it's a sibling that has stepped forward. Do you see that? Or do you see distinctions between feelings when it's the grandparent or when it's an aunt or uncle that's stepping forward to erase the child. Well,

Speaker 1  24:03  
I think it's interesting to watch the siblings even if they're not raising the child. Yeah, because, like you said, it can happen when the sibling is raising them. But there's some dynamics that the sibling can have an impact even if they're not raising okay, sure, the sibling rivalry doesn't stop. Yes, the siblings have watched the patterns. Yes, they've watched the dynamics, and they'll say things to the grandparents, you know, they'll resent their own mom doing this. Here we go again. You're saving him.

Dawn Davenport  24:39  
You're rescuing him,

Speaker 1  24:41  
right? You're doing this all over again. I've even seen siblings say you're taking away from my child, because you're now taking in his or her child. So there could be that feeling as well. They could become very, extremely protective of that relative. Caregiver again, you know, and sometimes unknowingly, will sabotage the placement. You shouldn't have that child. The child shouldn't be with you. It's, you know, rather than being supportive, you know. So, yeah, that. So the sabotage is very, very, very passive, you know, because rather than supporting, they're not supporting, you know, and that that can happen. So I find that when the sibling, even though they're not the relative caregiver, can still have a major impact. And that relative caregiver frequently has to deal with that sibling in terms of getting them to support them, getting them to give me permission, you know, getting them to not sabotage, you know, get getting them to not push the buttons of the birth parent. Look at what you're doing. You're doing it again. I'm going to give her a call and give her a piece of my mind about what's going on. Please don't call him, you know. So, so, so, so the relative caregiver gets called in the refereeing. That's the part that gets so rough a caregiver, they now have to start refereeing between the siblings because of their decision to take that child. And

Dawn Davenport  26:09  
this is probably something they've been referring to those kids over

Speaker 1  26:13  
your dog. How about that? Yeah, because civil rivalry is real. It is, you know, it's real. It's natural. When that caregiver is an aunt and uncle, then the dialog can become different. You know, for the birth parent, I'm still mom. You've always wanted to take over. You've never trusted me, you know, what are you telling her about me when we were growing up? You know, wait till I tell her about you, because you've got secrets too, you see, between sibs. So how are you going to sabotage so there's a whole nother again. There's a whole dialog that the aunt and uncles need to be aware of in anticipation, so then they can manage what gets triggered. Again, it's knowing what are your Achilles heel, what is the buttons that can get pushed,

Dawn Davenport  27:01  
and what are the patterns that you have established in your relationship with your sibling, who you are now raising their their child, because it's so tempting for those same patterns to repeat and to continue to be, you know, ad nauseam, into the future, and that it sometimes, it may be fine, But oftentimes those patterns are not helpful for this new role you are, which is stepped into, yes.

Speaker 1  27:25  
The other thing about those patterns, caregivers have to sometimes be careful of recreating the patterns with guess who the child? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Here are the key phrases caregivers have to watch out for. You're just Oh Dawn, listen to you. I love that layer. Yeah. You have to finish it because we do it just like your

Dawn Davenport  27:53  
mother. Thank you, like your Father,

Speaker 1  27:56  
thank you. And if the kids keep hearing it long enough, it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy, especially if you're talking about negative things. Sure about the passion. Do it. You can also do that in a positive way. Oh, you're just like your mom, just like your dad. They're right, they're smart, they articulate, they're creative, resourceful. Do it that way. But if it's coming out the opposite way, you can recreate the monster. All of a sudden, you can create the addictive behavior. You can recreate the acting out behavior, and the child then becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. You know, in fact, the child is going to automatically identify with their birth parents Anyway, yes. So since you know they're going to happen, you need to be part of forming the identification, you know, framing the identification. Yes, you are like your mom, but this is the way you like her, you know? Yeah, you are. You remind me of your mom. You're right, but you can make some different choices than her. And then the recollection of, you know, I remember when your mom was such an artistic person and your daddy was so athletic, bringing up because, you see, that's the strength of kinship gear. You have the memories,

Dawn Davenport  29:04  
yeah, so you could point out the ways,

Speaker 1  29:08  
right? You know, when I picked up on that is when the children started saying things like, Do you like my mom? When you hear that caregivers read in between lines, were you still like me? If I'm like them, you know. Do you think they're okay? You know, they're asking for permission here now to love them. They want to make sure you won't stop loving them, because they love their mom and dad, because they can see the anger, sure, or the tension, you know, yeah, that you have with them, you know. So how are you going to keep them out of you know, how are you going to still give them permission to attach to mom and dad? How are you going to still help them identify even though there's tension between you and that birth parent? Hey, folks,

Dawn Davenport  29:53  
we need you to follow or subscribe to the creating a family.org podcast. You can do that. Wherever you listen to your podcast, we have a huge archive of shows, almost 15 years worth, that you can access on whatever device it is you subscribe to us on. Most of them are what we call evergreen. You know, the topics, even if it was five years ago, the topic is still relevant. And we have the other beauty of that is, in our archive, we have some of the greatest experts that that are no longer with us, and so you get to hear them talking about a topic that you care about. So the best way to subscribe, as I said, is off of whatever device you're currently listening to us on. Thanks. So how, how do, let's go back to medicine, grandparents, well, either, actually any kinship caregiver. How do you not enable the child's parents, but still have a relationship? Because enabling is is often been a part of it may have stopped, but at some point there was often enabling going on into the addictive behavior, not always, but sometimes it has been. So how do you stop enabling and still, but still have a relationship? Because you think it's in the best Well, number one, they're your child, you want to have a relationship, or they're your sister or brother, you want that relationship, but also you think it's in the best interest of the child to have some relationship. But how do you not step back into those bad habits?

Speaker 1  31:28  
What I've seen caregivers do, and I kind of developed this from watching caregivers, they match the parental role with the parental capacity of the birth parent. Some birth parents are great at being friends with their children and not parents. Have you ever seen Yes, yeah, they're better friends than parents. Okay, you have some, you know, some birth parents who are better at being just good listeners with their children than disciplinarians. You have some birth parents that are good at being peers with the children as opposed to being parents with the children. Okay, because we've seen birth parents 15 going on 3030, going on 15, because the addiction stops them from growing. Okay, so a lot of times it's kind of of one letting the birth parent know that you recognize that they have an important role with their children, recognizing that they have power and influence with the children recognizing that the children still need them, so they need to verbally hear you say that okay, and that we have and that I need you in order to take care of the children. It makes things a lot easier if they hear you say so it's kind of being real clear with the birth parent about acknowledging their power, their role, their place, but at the same time being real clear about how you need them to take care of the children, and being real specific. You know, I need you. In the past, we've had problems getting along with each other, but it'll help the children know that if you could say to them, when I speak, I speak for you. I need to hear you. Say that the children need to hear you. Say that the children need to hear you. Say that I'm a good parent, that I'm going to take care of I need to hear that the children need to hear that the children need to hear you. Say that it's okay for them to come to me if they need help. You see, those things are tasks that go beyond enabling. You see and you're being being real clear about their role, their power, what they need to say, or even what they don't need to say. They don't need to we, you know, because sometimes it's saying, you know, they need you to not say, don't listen to me. They need you to not say, It's okay to run away. They need you to not say it's it seem to me, you know, it'll make things stable and better for them. So I think framing it in terms of two ways. One, what'll make things favor better for the children? Or two, how this will help me better take care of your children? Number three, how we can work together, but it's being real clear about you're needed, you have power, and then giving them specific things that you need to hear them say to the children to make it work, and

Dawn Davenport  34:31  
as and as a result, if we can do these things, it's better for the kids. But also then you can be more a part of the child's life Exactly,

Speaker 1  34:38  
exactly, you know. But this is how you can be a part. But give them a part,

Dawn Davenport  34:44  
you know, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1  34:46  
Give them a part. Match that part with, you know, I've seen some caregivers say, look, she just needs to know, you say she, she just needs to hear your voice. And sometimes that's all you want them to be, is a voice on the phone. Yeah? Because it's so heavy into the addiction or depression, you know, but he still needs to hear you on the phone say, Mommy, I love you. Yep, I love you. And guess what, I might be on the other end, because we both need to be saying the same thing. Now, granted, you are the other end, and you're screening this call

Dawn Davenport  35:15  
right, because you need to, and you may have to tell the parent what the child needs to hear. The child needs to hear that you love them, the child needs to hear that you miss them exactly. Yeah, right, yeah,

Speaker 1  35:27  
being real clear about it, you know. Now, granted, you know, you're not dealing with enabling necessarily, but in terms of them being responsible for

Dawn Davenport  35:35  
setting up healthy you're setting up healthy boundaries. And it seems to me that the essence of a strong kinship caregiving relationship is healthy boundaries. And it's complicated, because often you're dealing with a person who is in the midst of the, you know, of the addiction, of the substance abuse. That's right. So that's complicated, you know, that's, uh, yeah,

Speaker 1  36:02  
but I think that's why, when you can get into scripting, I call it scripting, when you can actually script with that care for that birth parent, what the child needs to hear you say, when you can actually script that sentence, you know, script that conversation, you know, you can help them focus at the same time, you know, and then making sure that your scripts are the same so you're not conflicting. You know that you're complimenting each other, you know, as well as boundaries, but then that you're you're also complimenting each other.

Dawn Davenport  36:33  
I love that idea of scripting, but what if the what if the parent, the birth parent, doesn't buy into your scripts. Doesn't doesn't do it

Speaker 1  36:43  
well, well, if they don't buy into it, here's what I've seen caregivers do. How are we going to explain to the child why they're with me without putting you down? How are we going to explain to the child? Help me with the script. You helped me. How am I going to explain to the child, you know, why they're living with me and not with you? How am I going to explain to the child? How do we explain what are the words we're going to use to explain to the child why you're in rehab or why you're arrested, or why you've been incarcerated? How are we going to explain that? Because I don't want to say anything that's going to make you look bad, or put you down, or come in between you and the child. So let's come up with the script, the dialog, the explanation, the words, you put it back on them, you know, you know in terms of being a part of that in a way. You know because I because you know your daughter, you know your son, they're going to figure it out. They're going to hear from other people. So how are we going to protect you and protect them, you know? Or how are we going to cope when they hear those things? What are we going to do and say to them when they hear things about mom and dad and why they're here with you, what are we going to do? How are we going to explain that

Dawn Davenport  37:54  
and try to have these conversations? If you know that your child is is actively using try to have these conversations at a point where it is more likely that they're not going to be encumbered. There may not be a time that's that way, but if you could Yeah, there may not Yeah, but if it's right, if you know mornings, maybe probably not mornings. But if you know around, you know for when they get up is a better time than try to schedule this. Yeah,

Speaker 1  38:21  
right. Okay, you're scheduling it and then also doing it around a time when you're not arguing. Yes, where there's some relative peace, you know, where there's some some calm, it's almost like you have to stage it. You set up the environment so you can have this kind of conversation. You know what I was thinking, we've got to figure out and everything is real peaceful. It's morning, it's quiet, it's the coffee time, or whatever it is. Bring that up at that moment, while it's calm. You know, when, when you can have that kind of discussion? You know, she asked me a question, or I could see a question coming from her about such and such. What do we want to say to this? You know, here's the other part. Is letting them know that if there's been a lot of tension and a lot of anger over the years, I think caregivers need to know that the birth parents are just as afraid of you as you are of them. They are afraid that you have more power than they do, that you have more influence than they do, that you're going to get in the way of them having a relationship, that you're going to give that child a negative image of them. They are more afraid of you simply because you have the child and they don't. So they're afraid of you, and you can tap right into that fear factor, you know, and let them know that I that I need you. I need to know that it's that you're not that you're going to let me have a relationship you, but you can almost start out with you. Need to know that I'm not going to try to put you down, not going to tell them negative things. About you. I'm not going to come in between your relationship with them. I'm not going to get them to choose Size, you know, I want you

Dawn Davenport  40:09  
to succeed. I want you to be I want you. Want you to get this child back. I want you to be the parent. Yeah,

Speaker 1  40:14  
that I didn't take you from them. But also need you to not say negative things about me, reverse that, not put me down, let me have a relationship. You know, I need the same thing from you that you need from me. So how can we work together? So acknowledging the fear, the common denominator, you know, and how we can work together sometimes that can help you get away from the past and move into it, equalizes the relationship, the powerful relationship that's really what it's kind of like getting, getting some balance in terms of of power, impact and the relative because it's almost like letting them know you're here even though you don't live here,

Dawn Davenport  40:52  
yes, and that's even though

Speaker 1  40:54  
you don't know that, even though and you think you're don't have power. Yes, you do, you know. And I feel it, I see it. She's got your lips. She's got your right,

Dawn Davenport  41:05  
right, and I want her to have this relationship. It's possible. How do you support co parenting? Are in finding a role for the child's birth parents when they're still not in a healthy place. Because we hear families say, you know, I'm not going to have, I won't have allow any visitation if they're stoned. I won't let them unless they're, you know, unless they do a drug test, they can't see the child. Or the opposite, where I need a break. Go ahead and take the child, and even though they know they're actively using so how do you do shared parenting in the degree? And I liked what you said about choosing the role. Is it a role of a friend? Is it a role of an advice giver? Is it a role of just somebody to problems or just hang out, just somebody who who is a fun person to play video games with, right? So, finding a role. But how do you find that role when you know that they're actively using and you don't want the child to be around that,

Speaker 1  42:13  
right? This is what I saw a caregiver do. The caregiver started off by letting the birth parent know that this child needs you. You have power, you have influence. You can make this placement a lot easier for them, or you can make it very difficult for them. What they need from you right now is permission to live here. They need to know. Back to the scripts again. They need to hear you say that it's okay for them to live here, that I'm going to take care of them, that they should listen to me, and they should let me protect them. Start off real simple, and they need to hear you say those things to them, whether you're in your addiction or not, whether you're in your addiction or not. I need you to still help me with that. And you can help me in your addiction this way with your child. Can you help me? I need you. The child needs you. They can be stone cold. They say, now you need to be verbal. Only thing I ask of you is to be verbal when you call so you can have those say those five things, and I'll be on the other end, so that they'll know that we're all on the same page, that that this child knows that you're giving me permission, you're saying I can do a good job, that they should listen to me and that they should let me protect them. Yeah. So Yeah. In fact, I'll be more specific, but I've actually brought in birth this isn't all theoretical, okay, I've actually brought in birth parents who were in their addiction, script them and they were high, and I knew they were high, but they were sober enough to have that conversation, come into the therapy session and actually say that to the child.

Dawn Davenport  44:05  
Because even high they can, they can follow the script depending, of course, on what substance and how much, but exactly, yeah, if they could, if they can, use just the minimal amount to get through this, they've done a huge service to their child. Oh yeah, that's right, yeah. So being able, and from the caregiver standpoint, being it's what I'm hearing you say, is being very clear about what you need for them to do and where their power is, yeah, yes, and

Speaker 1  44:33  
what their power is. I can't say that short name coming from me. Only you can say that only what you're saying makes the difference. It'll only make a difference if you say it. That's your power.

Dawn Davenport  44:47  
I want to tell you guys about one of our partners. They have been partners with us for not terribly long. They know about what we do to provide support and education to families. And they've stepped forward to help us, and that is children's house international they are a Hague accredited international adoption agency currently placing kids from 14 countries, and they work with families throughout the US. They also provide consulting for international surrogacy, if that is your preferred method for creating your family. So check them out. Children's House International. How do you handle other members of the family who are not accepting of if you're setting boundaries? Because that happens. It's not that these these other family members are intentionally sabotaging because they probably aren't, but they're not realizing that the reason that the caregiver is trying to set boundaries is because that the child's parents are not able. But it's complicated, because then you, like we said before, you're bringing in, you know your sisters, your you know the grandparents, sisters, you know response, or their other children's response or whatever. So how do you get the other family members? Now, sometimes it's obvious, and other family members are just thanking God that you've stepped forward, but, but sometimes not. So how to what script can we use with them?

Speaker 1  46:14  
Yeah, I think if you can. So it doesn't always work, but if you can explain to them how this is in the best interest of the child, how this is protecting the child, providing them safety and providing them stability, you know, and that's what we need to be about right now.

Dawn Davenport  46:33  
What were the events that led you to make this decision? They need to know them. They may not know

Speaker 1  46:38  
That's right, yeah, I find it so many times, if they could be part of this conversation we're having right now, terms of what were you thinking? This is what I'm telling the mom I'm going to be on the other end. It's almost like they still it's almost like this extended family needs to know that how you're in control, and you tell them how you're still in control. How does this benefit the child? I'll still know what the mom is doing, because I'm on the other end of the line. She's not going to get on the phone unless I first talk to her and make sure that she's sober enough to have this conversation. She's not going to have this face to face. We're going to have her do this on the phone, you know, have this conversation. This conversation. This conversation is only going to last probably about 30 seconds. Okay, so it's, it's, it's, it's giving them the structure, the thought, the parameters that went into setting up what they're seeing you let her back in the house again, knowing she stole from you and did X, Y and Z. How could you do that? Number one, the child was not there. Number two, I did a safety proof of the room she was in. First, I'm not going to leave the child alone, you know what I mean. So it's knowing that you know, because you know, it's kind of like, are they doing this out of protection me, protecting me? Are they doing this out of being angry with me? Are they doing this out of trying to hurt her? What? What are their motives? And then trying to tell them, here's my checklist. I did, A, B, C, D, it's safe. It's okay. You know, you now have to trust me too, right? And tell them what their role needs to be with you. You know how they can help the situation. And

Dawn Davenport  48:18  
sometimes it's the others in the family who are pushing you to allow the birth parent in more quickly than you're comfortable with. Sometimes it's the sometimes the extended family is wanting you to put the child you know, don't be so hard on them. Let, let the let the you know he's just going to take them down the street or whatever. Or they're they're pushing you to give more of the parenting role is, I mean, so it goes both ways in that respect.

Speaker 1  48:45  
Yeah, I find that if there's an addiction in the family where the other family members who are enabling other family members, who have used other family members who are feeling guilty and feel as though they're rescuing that, you know, doing that same kind of behavior, and they're trying to have it do it again. Sometimes the caregiver is just, you know, you're not going to make them happy, yeah, yeah, yeah. You're not even after you've done all the explaining and all the talking, then it just boils down to, I'm just going to have to live with your anger. Just going to have to accept the anger. I'm going to have to have to just do what's in the best interest of the child, you know, and just kind of, you know, accept that, trust that, and let the family member have to grow from the pain or whatever. Yeah,

Dawn Davenport  49:30  
exactly. You're not going to change if you've explained it and they are still. And then you also sometimes hear that you're too old to be doing this. You're, you know, you're too old. You're it's not good for you or or it's not good for the child, or both, you know? And at some point you just say, Yeah, you're right, you know, I this is not what I would choose. It's not there. This is not what I'm choosing, but it's, there's power. When you say, this is the. Best thing I can do for this child, right? There's power there. You can just keep going back to that. This is I'm doing the best I can with the hand I'm dealt. And this is, this is what I am trying to do, right?

Speaker 1  50:10  
Yeah? Keeping trying to keep them out of foster care. Mm, hmm, that might be another one. I keep trying to keep them in the family, yeah? Because the other alternative is for me to let go and then put it on you. Yeah, you still have your family. You have your children to raise. Yeah, I've seen caregivers do that too, you know, sure. What's the alternative? If not, what are you going to take the child? Should you have to do you want that responsibility? I'm the one who has the home now. You need to just deal with your family, your children. So, right? So, yeah, it's not fair, but it's better me than you, better me than the system, better me than foster care, yeah? And yeah, it's, it's not fair, and I'll know when enough is enough, yeah.

Dawn Davenport  50:52  
Or you could also say you could also step in to help, take them every other you know, take them every Saturday morning. Or, you know, do this. Or, you know, yeah, if you're saying I'm too old, you're probably right. I am. I could use some help. This is what specifically would be helpful for me. Cook a meal and bring it over, you know, two days a week, so I don't have to do that turn

Speaker 1  51:10  
turn it around, yeah? Turn it around Exactly, yeah. You know, in terms of how they can help you. Well, Dr Crumley,

Dawn Davenport  51:18  
thank you so much. This has been a joy. Had so much fun.

Unknown Speaker  51:27  
I love Yeah, you feel like work.

Dawn Davenport  51:32  
I would say the very thing, thank you so much. And for sharing your wisdom and your expertise, we truly appreciate it.