Predicting and Coping with Failed Adoption Matches

If you are considering domestic infant adoption, you need to listen to this show to better understand the possibility that the expectant mom may change her mind. Our guest is adoption attorney, Lila Bradley, who has practiced law relating to adoption and child welfare law for the past 20 years.

In this episode, we discuss:

• Distinction between failed match and adoption dissolution or sometimes known as disruption.
• What is the “typical” process for domestic infant adoption whether the adoptive parents are using an adoption agency or an adoption attorney?
• When do the adoptive parents legally become the baby’s parents?
• When can a mom change her mind and decide to parent the baby?
• Keep in mind that what prospective adoptive parents see as a “failure” very well may be seen as a “success” by the biological parents.
• Creating a Family resource: Failed Adoption Matches: How Common? How Costly? How to Survive
• What are some signs that an adoption match may fail and the mom will decide to parent?
• When is the most common time for a mom to change her mind and decide to parent?
• Does it matter what stage of pregnancy the match was made?
• How often do biological moms change their mind about placing their baby for adoption?
• Do adoptive parents lose money if the adoption match fails?
• Suggestions on how adoptive parents can cope when an adoption match falls apart?
• Do adoption matches with foster children disrupt? 
• Do adoption matches in international adoption disrupt?
• Do adoptions disrupt after finalization?

Resources: 

• Failed Adoption Matches: How Common? How Costly? How to Survive 
• State laws on when expectant parents can change their mind about relinquishing their child for adoption. 
• Children's Bureau

Transcript

Please pardon any errors, this is an automated transcript.
Dawn Davenport  0:00  
Welcome. This is creating a family talk about foster adoptive and kinship care. Welcome back to all of our regulars and a special welcome to you newbies. I'm Dawn Davenport. I am the host of this show as well as the director of creating a family.org. Today we're going to be talking about predicting and coping with failed adoption matches. This is a really important topic, it happens more often than especially I think prospective adoptive parents going into an adoption realize we're going to be giving you lots of information about it. So hang around and stay to the end we will be giving you some tips for coping with it. We will be talking today with Lila Bradley. She is a partner with Claiborne's Fox, Bradley and Goldman LLC in Atlanta, Georgia. She has practiced law relating to adoption and child welfare for the past 20 years. She was the former director of the Atlanta volunteer lawyers Foundation's Children's Law Program, where she worked with volunteer lawyers to provide pro bono legal representation for children who were in foster care, or were the subjects of high conflict, custody disputes, to bring attention to the rights and needs of children. She offered the publication, family preservation in Georgia, a legal guide to preventing unnecessary removal to stay custody. Welcome, Lila, to creating a family.

Speaker 1  1:24  
Thank you, I really appreciate the opportunity to be here. As

Dawn Davenport  1:28  
I mentioned, this is an important topic. But I want to make a distinction at the beginning to help everybody know what we are talking about. And that is we're talking about matches that don't work out. We're going to be spending most of our time together today talking about domestic infant adoption. But we're also going to be talking about foster care adoption and international adoption towards the end. A failed match is different from an adoption, dissolution or sometimes known as an adoption disruption. That happens after the adoption is finalized. A failed match happens prior to finalization. So maybe to make this a little easier for everybody to understand. Can you talk to us about what is the and I'm going to put air quotes around the word typical, because I realized, when we're talking adoption, very little is typical. But anyway, what is the typical process for domestic infant adoption, whether the adoptive parents are using an adoption agency or an adoption attorney?

Speaker 1  2:29  
Sure. So you're right, of course, it's hard to talk about typical, but we can identify a couple of phases that virtually every adoption goes through, recognizing that adoption law is a state law. So it's different depending on what state you're in. And that

Dawn Davenport  2:50  
drives people crazy in that there are more than 50, because we've got other territories, so and then DC, each of them have their own law, and not a single one of them is identical.

Speaker 1  3:01  
That is exactly right. And not infrequently. adoptive parents hopeful adoptive parents are dealing with two state laws because perhaps they live in one state and the expectant mother lives in another state. I think of adoption process in phases or stages. And so the first stage is the match when the expectant mother has chosen the prospective adoptive parents, the expectant mother and possibly the biological father, those individuals who are going to have the legal rights to this child when born when they make that decision of who they want to place the child with. And when those prospective hopeful adoptive parents have agreed this is the person we want to make an adoption plan with. So we're going to call that the match that proceeds to then the birth of the child because in most cases, that surrender of parental rights, were the parents with legal rights to the child, sign the documents to surrender those rights and consent to the adoption. That happens following birth. So you've got the match initiated, then the adoption plan progresses and to the birth, then the documents are signed, or the parents appear in court. Some states require a court appearance to surrender rights. Then it proceeds to adoption finalization, which again, depending on the state, could be too months following birth. It could be six months following birth or a year just depending on what's going on with that adoption plan. And what the state law So are

Dawn Davenport  5:00  
the baby is living with the adoptive parents during this period of time?

Speaker 1  5:04  
In most cases? Yes. What you would expect in a typical private meaning not involving the state agency, infant adoption, the child is placed following delivery and is living with the adoptive parents through that initial surrender phase, proceeding to finalization.

Dawn Davenport  5:26  
Is there any state that you know of that allows a birth parent or an expectant parent, but in this case, they're planning on placing a child? Does it allow any to relinquish their parental rights prior to birth?

Speaker 1  5:41  
There are several states my state, Georgia is one where an unmarried father can effectively surrender rights and consent to adoption before this child is born. But to the best of my knowledge, there are no states that permit a final surrender of rights from the mother until following delivery. Thank

Dawn Davenport  6:10  
goodness, you know, that would be so wrong. So okay, good. That's as far as I know, I would agree. I've never heard of one. That's why I was asking, right? When can a mom change her mind and decide, I'm changing my mind. I don't want to place this child I want to parent. Sadly,

Speaker 1  6:27  
for everybody, those decisions can be made and people can change their minds, essentially, at any point from the initial match. Up until that surrender of rights when she is signing documents, or appearing before court, depending on the state. She can always change her mind up until that point, then, state laws differ significantly. On how long she has from the point in time when she has signed those documents. How long does she have to revoke that surrender consent. In the state of Georgia, our revocation period is four days. Although if the fourth day falls on a weekend or a holiday, it goes to the following day. So we've you know, if she has surrendered on the Wednesday before the Labor Day weekend, then her revocation period is going to extend until that Tuesday after Labor Day. That's

Dawn Davenport  7:32  
a relatively small, other states have a longer period of time. Yes,

Speaker 1  7:36  
I know states that have revocation periods, up to 30 days, there might be some that are even longer. Now there are also states that provide that she cannot sign until a certain waiting period after birth, maybe two or three days, and then it's non revocable. And then in other states, that surrender or consent to adoption is done in front of a judge, in which case it is then non revocable. Got it. Okay. Now, there is a resource that I always point to please, yes, the Children's Bureau, our Department of Health and Human Services has an agency called the Children's Bureau. And you can find it online if you just Google Children's Bureau. And

Dawn Davenport  8:26  
we'll also include the link in the show notes. Yeah, it is a

Speaker 1  8:30  
wealth of information on the laws around the country. And so there's a page that goes state by state to tell you when can birth parents sign? And how long do they have to revoke?

Dawn Davenport  8:43  
Gotcha. I agree with you. It's a wonderful resource. And again, we will include the link.

Unknown Speaker  8:49  
Let me pause here to

Dawn Davenport  8:51  
remind you that we want your questions. We now have a it's not really that new. It's actually almost a year old, but weekend wisdom podcast that we are doing drops on as you would imagine the weekend and we answer your question, so please send us your questions, you could send them to info at creating a family.org and it will find its way to me. And I will answer your questions on air and we will not use your name if you don't choose for us to. So send us your questions, please for our weekend wisdom. Keep in mind, I think it's important that we say this upfront what prospective adoptive parents see as a failure very well may be seen as a success by the biological parents. So we're talking about a failed match. And in no way am I trying to underplay the pain and it is real, that prospective adoptive parents feel when that happens. I think it's important to also note that it's totally within the rights of the parents to make this decision. And for them This is not a failure. This is okay, I've figured out ways to make this work type of thing. I also want to let you know about a terrific creating a family resource that we have we did a survey, we have a very large online support group. It's a Facebook group facebook.com/groups/creating, a family. And we did a survey of our members of the group about how many faced in adoption, match failure, and how much money they lost, at what point in time during the pregnancy, they were matched to see if there was a correlation there. We also interviewed a number of adoption attorneys and adoption agencies about what they're seeing. It's a really terrific resource, it's the only one I know of that really addresses this topic, because it's not one that's talked about much the title of that resource is failed adoption matches, how common, how costly, and how to survive. We also include in that tips for, if you can look at your match, red flags, that might indicate that the match may fail, at some point, we will include the link to that resource in the show notes. So Lila, when is the most common time for a mom to change her mind and decide to parent? Are there certain times? And does it matter? When in the pregnancy, she matches? You know, you can match it, you know, it's possible, it doesn't happen very often, she can match it eight weeks of pregnancy, versus she can also match after the baby is born. So that's a long nine month period. So when in that time, is it most likely? Or is there any common time,

Speaker 1  11:40  
I will say in my experience that I don't see a most common time, frankly, I do see perhaps a most common time, depending on a circumstance of the birth mother, for instance, I find that when it's a young woman, and this is her first pregnancy, and she's not parenting other children, I think where I see the most likely time for her to change her mind is in the final stages of pregnancy, when many women go through what they call the nesting period. It's clearly an evolutionary part of our makeup when all the body signals are telling this woman to build the nest for the child. And I think when she starts feeling that, having never gone through that before, I think that can be a time when first time mothers make that decision. Or immediately following the birth when she sees and holds the baby. And again, her body and her hormones are all telling her this is your baby. So that I think for first time mothers is a very common time for women who have a fraught, and on again, off again relationship with the biological father. What I look for, is how absent is he? Or is he coming back around, because that will have a huge impact on her decision, her final decision of whether to surrender. Other than that, it's it's hard to predict very hard to predict,

Dawn Davenport  13:28  
you know, I would throw another one out there. If the birth grandmother, especially if it's the mom's mother is not in favor of the adoption, the grandmother is often a major support and if she is not in favor. Yeah, I think you make an interesting point that the majority of women now who are making adoption plans are already parenting one or two or three children. So they have a very clear idea on what it is that they are getting into. All right. Do you see that it matters, what stage of pregnancy the match was made?

Speaker 1  14:08  
I don't know that. That is something I've observed. Although I do think that the matches that come earlier in pregnancy, give an opportunity for the prospective adoptive parents to build a relationship with the expectant mother. And that's what I tell my clients is that that relationship if you can build a relationship with her, and whoever her support system is if there's a if the biological fathers involved or the grandmother, if you can build a relationship during pregnancy, then that is gonna go a long way to assuring her that you are someone that she can trust to raise her child and that she can trust to live into whatever degree of openness she has asked for. Because there is anxiety in these women, very often there's anxiety that their child is not going to be raised well, sure,

Dawn Davenport  15:17  
of course, or that the adoptive parents will not honor the agreements that were made prior to the adoption. We asked that question about what trimester in the pregnancy or after birth, they were matched to try to see if we could draw a correlation. And I was thinking when we did this, that we would see if they were matched earlier in the pregnancy, it would be more likely because there would be more time for the match to fail. As you point out, we did not see that. Now fewer women actually match in their first trimester. But actually we saw for matches that fail. The greatest number, we're in the third trimester. I don't know how scientific This is. But anyway, what you say about there doesn't seem to be a correlation seems to hold true from what we saw as well. Did you know that most people find out about podcast through talking with others word of mouth is the number one way that people find out about podcasts. I know that to be true in my personal life. I do that all the time. I love podcasts. Of course, I love my own, but I also love other podcasts. And I'm always asking other podcasts addicts, what are you listening to? So do us a favor, our mission is to reach more and more people. And you are our top way of doing that. So please let your friends let your family know about the creating a family podcast, it's super easy to subscribe on whatever app you are listening to a podcast on, just search for creating a family and click the little subscribe or follow button. So tell your friends Lila, how often do biological moms change their mind about making a placement for adoption? Where they decide against after they've already matched? Well,

Speaker 1  17:07  
of course, I don't have data on that beyond my own practice. But I can say based on my observation and of my practice and my colleagues, I would guess that we're talking about 20 to 30%. These are people who've already hired a lawyer. So the match is far enough along that they need a lawyer. That's what I see in my practice. Yeah,

Dawn Davenport  17:36  
and I think we've heard it's all over the board. I mean, from what we interviewed agencies, and 20 to 30%, we've seen 50%. So, you know, honestly, I would be a little worried if I was talking with an attorney or an agency and they say they don't see it at all. That would worry me, because that's just both not realistic. That also would make me worried that there's some form of coercion or something that could be going on with the expected parents. So yeah,

Speaker 1  18:08  
I would agree with that. But what I would also suggest is that if you are working with a truly skilled professional, whether it's an agency or an independent social worker, or an attorney, who's also highly ethical, it's also possible that there could be really good screening at the front end. So that perhaps, prospective adoptive parents would be introduced to a pregnant woman, but the professionals are saying this one very well won't work out. So you go into it, knowing there's a high degree of risk, and then, indeed, quickly, it fails. I hesitate to even call those failed matches, because I've seen I've had clients go through that. And it's still frustrating and disappointing and saddening. But because they've been careful at the front end, with a good assessment of that woman and where she is in her decision making process and where the risks are. They can protect themselves from getting too far into that match. So that it is a devastating failure.

Dawn Davenport  19:24  
Yeah. And adoption matches, which fail are both emotionally really, really hard. falls into the category of we talk about ambiguous loss. I mean, no one understands it. It's, it's your loss. But this is actually you know, this is not a loss for this woman. If you've formed a relationship with it's just very confusing and people don't get it. So you're kind of alone in this loss. We're going to talk about that in just a moment. But before we talk about some of the coping with it part, it's not only the emotional aspect, but it can also So be a financial hit. And that's something that I think a lot of parents don't realize. And I think that we in the field, need to be more clear with families. So let's talk about that. How can an adoptive parent lose money if the match fails? Well, I

Speaker 1  20:20  
want to say, first of all, I don't want to think about it as losing money. There are costs for services at every step of the way. And it is so important that you engage skilled and ethical professionals along the way to make sure that the adoption plan is well formulated, and that everyone is supported. And so at the beginning of the match, the adoptive parents need to be paying someone to do a thorough assessment of that pregnant woman. And so that money is being spent for services, and it doesn't come back, you don't get a refund. If the adoption doesn't go forward. But you've paid for something of real value, you need to hire a lawyer to assess the legal issues of each state. If the match fails, that money does not get refunded to you, you paid for that you had valuable services provided to you. Now, there are many agencies and some facilitators, where you are paying for the match, you are paying to be introduced to that woman. That money, depending on your agreement with that person, some of that could be refunded if the match fails. And you need to scrutinize that and consider that very carefully in advance before you pay that money. And ask those questions. And look at whatever contract you're signing with the agency or the facilitator to say, When am I entitled to a refund, or perhaps, you know, some discount on future services, if a match fails?

Dawn Davenport  22:26  
Well, and I appreciate what you're saying, you're paying for services, so you're not losing money. On the other hand, if you're a prospective adoptive parent who is going into their savings are they have got a home equity loan, and they've got X amount of money to spend, and they're spending it with the hope of becoming a parent. To them, it very much feels like a loss. Absolutely. Some agencies have a common pool, where if money is lost, each family has contributed to that. So it does not impact the individual parents do not have to pay. So that's part of it. Another thing to consider is expectant mom expenses that you may have been paying the mom, maybe perhaps her rent are a food allowance or whatever it is, depending on the state you have certain things that you can reimburse the mom, maternity clothes is often included in that, that also doesn't come back. It's not a quid pro quo. I pay this and then you give me your baby. That's just not how it works. In our survey, just to give people an idea, we asked how much money did you lose on the failed match? And these are results 17 People said they lost no money. Nine people said that they lost less than $1,000.17 people reported that they were out between 1005 1000. And then 16 said that they lost more than $5,000. And not everyone shared an amount but those that did they range from the 10 9000 all the way up to 1516 and $30,000.

Speaker 1  24:13  
And that absolutely can be devastating. You know, what I hoped for, for people seeking an adoption is that they are doing lots of research. And I'm sure creating a family has lots of resources on financial planning and budgeting. And also the applicability of the federal adoption tax credit, because it can be utilized in some cases for the expenses of a failed adoption. Yes. And so I'm hoping that hopeful adoptive parents are researching that and incorporating that into their budget planning.

Dawn Davenport  24:52  
We have a annual show on the adoption tax credit. And every time we talk about about how you recoup your money if you have a failed match. And that's a very valuable resource. Now let's talk about how adoptive parents can cope when an adoption match falls apart. As I mentioned, it's a weird type of grief. It's, it is a grief. I mean, there's just no question, even if you know, and of course, intellectually, you may well know that this baby is not yours, this baby during this pregnancy belongs to its mom. And you know that intellectually, but you cannot help but start becoming attached. start envisioning, you may be having a baby shower, you may be decorating a nursery. And even if you hold off doing all those things, I don't know a single person who's not saying, okay, the due date is in May. Okay, so cashew, we're gonna have a baby moon, we better planted in April, or, you know, family, everybody is going to be coming in the summer here. So let's, you're just you start shifting your life to make room for and, and next thing is real for adoptive parents, too. And you're going through all this, and then it feels like the rug is ripped out from under you. There's just nothing other than grief to describe it. It's a great word. Yeah.

Speaker 1  26:22  
And the other thing that happens, and that we see, in my observation, the majority of women making the decision to place a child for adoption, are struggling financially. And they also may be struggling with depression or other mental illnesses. And they may be struggling with substance problems, and relationship problems. And when those women make the decision to parent, it is also very difficult for these prospective adoptive parents, these people who who did attach to the idea, the knowledge that a baby is growing, and they were hoping that baby was going to come home with them. And then to know that that baby is going to be raised by a woman who faces a lot of challenges that causes so many conflicting feelings about worrying about the baby.

Dawn Davenport  27:22  
And anger sometimes, you know, the, the feeling and it's not something you want to talk about, because you're just going to hear well, it wasn't your baby. So but anger, I would be a better parent. I have more resources, whatever. Just just a whole, very conflicting feelings. Yeah. So what do you suggest to prospective adoptive parents going through this?

Speaker 1  27:45  
You know, I suggest therapy, I try to remind them that I'm not a therapist, even though I'm here to listen and process feelings along with them that I encourage them to get counseling. You know, a good home study provider is also qualified in many instances, to provide counseling. And so I encourage people to choose their home study provider, to choose someone who has the experience and the licensing, to provide actual counseling services that can be wonderful to work through these issues with someone who's very experienced and adoption. And also to seek support from peers, I follow the creating a family Facebook groups just to hear what's going on so that I can better relate to my clients and getting that peer support through a Facebook group or a local support group. Many, many areas have local support groups for people trying to build a family.

Dawn Davenport  28:52  
And some agencies have this as well. Yeah. I will also throw out that in that survey that we did. I think all her certainly almost all of the people who responded, were able to adopt successfully after a failed match. Now we had a skewed audience in that they were members of our support group. So if they had dropped out of the adoption process, they probably would have dropped out of the group. But nonetheless, I think all of them were able to, or there were a few that were still in the process, but they expect it to be successful. So hopefully that will help as well. Let me interrupt this interview. Just to remind you that the jockey being Family Foundation, who has spent a very long term supporter of our mission here at creating a family and this podcast, they have provided the funding for us to offer free courses for you. You can check those courses out at Bitly bi T dot L y slash J B F support. There are 12 courses they change annually if you need it certificate to completion, you can get them. But if you don't need it, you can still listen to the courses, they are terrific. So check them out at Bitly, slash j, b, f support. All right up to this point, we've been talking about domestic infant adoption. But I also want to talk about matches when you are adopting through foster care and it is a entirely different process. So match means a different thing. And foster care. You want to take a stab at talking about that first, Laila?

Speaker 1  30:33  
Sure. So as you say, it's foster care adoptions are very different. But typically, the path to adoption of a foster child either is entering the system, and telling your state agency child welfare agency in Georgia, we call it defects, telling them, we are signing up and want to adopt a child who is already available for adoption. So a child where parental rights have already been terminated. Or you enter the system, and agree to foster children who are not available for adoption, with the understanding, and certainly hope, that if those children are not able to be reunified with their families, their biological families, that then you would want to adopt those children. Obviously, that path carries the potential for a lot more heartbreak, because many of those children are eventually going to be reunified with their birth parents, or with biological relatives, about

Dawn Davenport  31:45  
three quarters, and it's been remained the same for many years, what we say is that you need to go in with the full understanding that you are likely going to be a temporary soft landing place for this child, and that you take on the responsibility to root for the birth family to support reunification, that is the goal. But about 25% of the time reunification either with the biological parents or with extended family doesn't happen. And most often foster parents are then asked if they would like to step forward. So I'm so glad you pointed that out. Yeah.

Speaker 1  32:19  
But aside from the reunification piece of it, that what feels like a match could fail because a child is sent to a relative or back to the parents. Aside from that, putting that aside, there also are instances where the match itself, the relationship between these hopeful parents and the child doesn't work. These are children, without exception, who have come from trauma, and trauma damages children. And the result is often behaviors that are difficult to deal with. And a whole variety of issues. And there are times when those prospective adoptive parents and the agency need to make the decision, this is not the right match. And that can be very hard because that child is already in your home. And you feel responsibility, you feel guilt, if you have to make the decision that you are not the right parent for this child. And that can be really, really hard. And what I say to people when I counsel them during a time like that, is that as hard as that is to make that decision. The only thing worse for the child than having to then change homes again, before adoption, is when the relationship truly falls apart after the adoption is finalized.

Dawn Davenport  34:02  
And that's exactly right. And sometimes it's not just the parents, but in fact, very often, we see that if other children in the family are struggling with this placement. That's a strong indicator that it may not be a good match for the family.

Unknown Speaker  34:21  
Yes, yeah. But it's hard.

Dawn Davenport  34:22  
What about an international adoption?

Speaker 1  34:27  
So, of course, I'm sure many of your listeners are aware that the number of international adoption opportunities has decreased significantly over the years as laws have changed, and with political changes as well. But in most instances, I would say all that I'm aware of the termination of parental rights happens in the child's home country. And in most cases, the adoption it's Self is finalized in the child's home country. But there are still failures, I guess, at adoption matches that don't proceed to finalization along the way for different reasons. And it can be painful. And it's still all the same things that we talked about with a birth mother making the decision. There's heartbreak, and anxiety, and anger and loss of money along the way, as you're pursuing that adoption, and something goes wrong in that country, or with that child or with that system, where you're not able to finally bring that child home. It's

Dawn Davenport  35:48  
not common, but we do see it happening even after the families have traveled and are in country, they realize that this child's needs are greater than we can meet, or for whatever reason, and that's even more complicated, of course, because they're already in the child's country. So it is possible for the match and international adoption to fail. And before we leave, let's talk about adoptions that disrupt fail. After the adoption is finalized. That is not what we had been talking about up to this point up to this point we've been talking about before the adoption is finalized, the match fails. But sadly, adoption, and the terms are all over the place. Adoption. dissolution, I think is the official term. But you also hear it called adoption disruption. Let's talk briefly about those failures and how they differ. Yeah,

Speaker 1  36:45  
so when an adoption is finalized, in a court in a state court, and the judge signs that order of adoption, under the law, and this is the law, to the best of my knowledge, in all 50 states plus territories. That child is legally the child of the adoptive parents, and the legal relationship between those adoptive parents and the child is identical to the legal relationship between people who gave birth to their children. And so in the state of Georgia, there is no path to dissolving an adoption relationship or legal adoption, there is no path to undo an adoption. And so for those tragic cases, where the adoptive parents, at some point, struggle with the ability to parent the child, and I would say, in my experience, that's most often we're talking about children who came from the foster care system or in international adoptions. They're still coming from a foster care system from a child welfare system. It was just in that other country, those children were harmed by the trauma and then the behaviors and disorders that they develop. The adoptive parents come to the point where they say I can't parent this child anymore. What do I do? And if they call me as an attorney in Georgia, I tell them there is no path to undoing this adoption, other than finding a new home for this child. And working through the legal process of placing this child for another adoption. I am aware that there are some courts around the country that depending on some particularly critical and tragic facts, might be willing to undo an adoption or dissolve it. But that is the minority of the cases. In most cases, there's no legal path to undo the adoption. It has to be a secondary placement for IT adoption.

Dawn Davenport  39:14  
In essence, you become the not expected but you become the parent who is making an adoption plan for this child. All right. Well, thank you so much. Lila Bradley for talking with us today about predicting and coping with failed adoption matches, we truly appreciate your expertise. Well,

Speaker 1  39:36  
I enjoyed the opportunity and I wish all your listeners the best in their search.

Dawn Davenport  39:42  
Before you leave, don't click off yet on the podcast. I wanted to tell you about a new training that we are offering a prenatal substance exposure to alcohol and drug training that we are offering. I don't know that we have ever created anything I am more proud of it is such a good it's an interactive Training is a facilitated interactive training. There's lots of small groups there's working through scenarios. It is three sessions. It is just an excellent excellent training so if you think that any of the children you are parenting may have been exposed to alcohol or drugs and you are confused by some of their behaviors are learning challenges, please check it out at Bitly slash prenatal dash exposure dash training that's bi T dot L y slash prenatal cash exposure cash training