How can white parents raise anti-racist children in this time of violence against people of color and protests. We talk with Dr. Ann Hazzard, a clinical child psychologist who was on the faculty at Emory University in Atlanta and co-author of Something Happened in Our Town: A Child's Story about Racial Injustice; and Dr. Joy Harris, a Full-time Lecturer at Princeton Theological Seminary and co-author of The ABCs of Diversity: Helping Kids (and Ourselves!) Embrace Our Differences.
In this episode, we cover:
Tip 1. Talk about Race
Tip 2: Acknowledging & Celebrating Racial Diversity
Tip 3: Recognize systemic/institutionalized racism and white privilege
Tip 4: Talk about Violence Against People of Color and the Protests/Resistance
This podcast is produced by www.CreatingaFamily.org. We are a national non-profit with the mission to strengthen and inspire adoptive, foster & kinship parents and the professionals who support them. Creating a Family brings you the following trauma-informed, expert-based content:
Please leave us a rating or review RateThisPodcast.com/creatingafamily
How can white parents raise anti-racist children in this time of violence against people of color and protests. We talk with Dr. Ann Hazzard, a clinical child psychologist who was on the faculty at Emory University in Atlanta and co-author of Something Happened in Our Town: A Child's Story about Racial Injustice; and Dr. Joy Harris, a Full-time Lecturer at Princeton Theological Seminary and co-author of The ABCs of Diversity: Helping Kids (and Ourselves!) Embrace Our Differences.
In this episode, we cover:
Tip 1. Talk about Race
Tip 2: Acknowledging & Celebrating Racial Diversity
Tip 3: Recognize systemic/institutionalized racism and white privilege
Tip 4: Talk about Violence Against People of Color and the Protests/Resistance
This podcast is produced by www.CreatingaFamily.org. We are a national non-profit with the mission to strengthen and inspire adoptive, foster & kinship parents and the professionals who support them. Creating a Family brings you the following trauma-informed, expert-based content:
Please leave us a rating or review RateThisPodcast.com/creatingafamily
Please pardon the errors, this is an automatic transcription.
0:00
Welcome, everyone to Creating a family talk about adoption and foster care. I'm Dawn Davenport. I'm the host as well as the director of the nonprofit creating a family.org. Today we're going to be talking about how to raise an anti racist child. How can white parents raise an anti racist child in this time of violence against people of color, as well as all the protests against systemic racism. We talked today with Dr. Ann Hazzard. She is a clinical child psychologist who is on the faculty at Emory University in Atlanta, and co author of something happened in our town, a child's story about racial injustice. We will also be talking with Dr. Joy Harris. She is a full time lecturer at Princeton Theological Seminary, and co author of The ABCs of diversity, helping kids and ourselves, embrace our differences. This is a re air of a show we did a couple of years ago, in the summer of 2020, it is as relevant today as it was then, and is such a strong show in such a strong interview, we want to bring it to you again, I hope you enjoy it as much this time around as I have. Welcome Dr. Harris and Dr. Hazzard to Creating a Family, we're so glad to have you here today.
1:23
Thank you for having me.
1:25
We are going to be focusing our talk today on how to help white parents raising white kids. Now we recognize that many in our community are white and black parents raising kids of color, some of the information shared will be relevant. And many of the resources, especially if we talk about children's books will be relevant. But a few of the resource, a few resources that we would recommend that are more specific to raising black and brown kids, and would include the embrace race.org website, it was founded by a black and mixed race parents to provide resources for raising black kids. Another great resource is a website called one talk at a time. And you can just Google that just one talk at a time, I'm going to quickly give you it's not it's got what we call an unfriendly URL, an ugly URL, it's not an easy one to remember I am going to it will be in the show notes, guys. So you've got no we will embed it in the show notes that will be the easier way or just Google one talk at a time. And they provide support for African American, Asian American and Latinx Americans to talk with their kids about race and ethnicity. And the thing I really like about their website is they recognize that that talk and the issues faced by each of those demographics is different. And so they have sections a separate section for black Asian, and Latin X parents. So I particularly like both of those resources very much. So we are going to be jumping into talking about now for are focusing on how white parents can help raise anti racist kids. And as white families and I speak as a white parent, we have the luxury or the or the privilege of ignoring the issue of race and racism because it makes us uncomfortable. And maybe also because we assume it doesn't affect us or our kids. But that is absolutely not the case racism dehumanizes, every one of us, and it also destabilizes us and our families. So the question we're going to tackle today is how to raise an anti racist child. And I think I want to begin with the difference between because one of the things we will often hear is people saying In fact we've heard recently in the news is that I am not a racist, or I am I'm not a racist, but what's the difference between not being a racist and being anti racist? Dr. Harris, let me begin with you.
3:59
I'm anti racism, I think that being an anti racist first would mean acknowledging that you have some form of privilege especially if you are a person who is white or identifies as white that you have some type of privilege and that you work toward can or consistently work toward breaking down to the systems of oppression that that hinder and that do not assist in promoting equality amongst people.
4:34
Okay, so that's the fundamental distinction and ultimately that's what we want. We want to raise anti racist we want to we want to raise the bar. So excellent. Dr. Hazard, we will often also hear people who will say and this is almost exclusively white people saying, you know, love is going to conquer all we're we're all one race. We're just the Human race. What's wrong with saying that? Why is that not helpful?
5:06
Well, a couple of reasons. First, that kinds of that shuts down the conversation about race, and gives children the feeling that this isn't something we can talk about. It's, it's an ideal. And we are all part of the human race, but it's ignoring the reality that that race does impact people in our society. And if we don't talk about that were colluding with that. And that's, that's, in your first question about not being a racist, and everybody's role scared to talk about that, because that is a dirty word and horrible accusation. But the reality is that we all were raised in America, we all you know, Beverly, Daniel Tatum has a beautiful phrase of we all breathe is a smog of racism. So even those of us who consciously don't have negative ideas about people of other races, the likelihood is that unconsciously we we do. And that part of working to be an anti racist, as Dr. Harris said, is being willing to examine that as well as to understand more about structural racism, which I think we'll get into as we, as we keep talking.
6:36
It also feels like it's, it's undermining the, our black and brown, fellow parents, it's, it's not recognizing their life experience of, of all being part of the human race, that may not be how they experience it. Dr. Harris, any thoughts on that?
6:56
Yeah, I mean, you know, right, before we began in explaining sort of my training, you know, culture, communication and culture. And I think Dr has just started to, you know, talk about this is that our behaviors, the things that we say, the things that we do, whether consciously or unconsciously, are always speaking, we can't help but to communicate. And so, the parents, the black parents, who are raising children, regardless of their ethnicity are also having, you know, an interesting, maybe having an experience depending on you know, sort of where they fall socio, you know, socio economically and, you know, their voices also, you know, needs to be heard and, and to be lifted. But yes, our communication, how we, how we interact, is constantly speaking, whether we're conscious of it or not.
7:54
Yeah, absolutely. Particularly there, whether we're conscious of it or not part, right. All right. So we decided that the best way to approach this is to give you practical tips, this is not going to be a pie in the sky. Discussion, we're going to try to break this down into practical tips that you as a parent can implement to help raise an anti racist child. Our first tip is going to be talk about race. I think it is well known that racism thrives in silence. But the truth is, many white parents are hesitant to raise the topic. Why do you think that is? Dr. Hazard?
8:39
I think many white parents are feel uncomfortable because their parents didn't talk about it with with them. And I'm going to talk about well meaning parents that weren't raised in an atmosphere of of explicit racism, although that would complicate it. But anyway, another level of complication. Yeah, so another level of complication, but they feel uncomfortable. They are scared to say the wrong thing. Most white parents research and sort of my own experience, and I'll raise my hand and say I raised my grown daughter with a fairly colorblind philosophy, which is what the term that used to describe parents who really don't talk about race and kind of give that message of, you know, we're all the same, but they just don't talk explicitly about race or racism. And, you know, we've we've been trying that approach for maybe the past, whatever, so many years and we haven't, it hasn't made been effective and making changes in our society. It's mostly I mean, it's colluding with the status quo. It's giving our kids the message that we're kind of okay with how things are because we're not speaking about it, and we're certainly not speaking out against against it.
10:10
And I'll just throw in as, as also a white parent that we're afraid of doing it wrong, we're afraid of saying something wrong. And I think that that fear keeps us silent. So our first tip is to overcome the fear and because by not saying thing, something, you are part of the problem. So
10:29
we accept you are, you are going to make mistakes. Parents make mistakes in all sorts of areas, and certainly in an area that you don't have much experience or knowledge in. But as long as you have, you know, if your hearts in the right place, you're willing to learn from your mistakes, you know, you're gonna get plenty of do overs, because it's not just one conversation. Right? Yeah, we're
10:50
going to come to that. Yeah, in fact, that's a that's a part we certainly want to highlight. Dr. Harris, when do children start to recognize racial differences? When does race become an issue for children, that they're, that they start becoming cognizant of it? Um,
11:05
well, I think that there's a lot of research that really points to the fact that kids start recognizing difference as as early as five, six months old, right. And, and so we know that they are recognizing difference, just based off of their first sort of institution, which is their family and the people who are surrounding that family. As kids get a little bit older, somewhere around the toddler stage, I think they begin to notice, or at least, are able to verbalize sort of what their note what they notice or what they see. And then of course, by the time you're in middle school, junior high school there, it's very clear. So noticing difference happens very early on. And that in and of itself is not necessarily negative, what comes negative is the after, you know, the attitudes and the beliefs and the behaviors that come along over time with that, if I could just, you know, interject something from the last question about the silence. One thing, I think that it's important for parents, particularly white parents to know, is that the silence, people are dying in the midst of the silence. And so while silence can, silence communicates, right, and and in this instance, it kills. The second thing that I wanted to note, to maybe even articulate a little bit more clearly, some of what you both have raised as it relates to white parents hesitancy is is is acknowledgement of the privilege, right, the privilege that they have to talk about it or not talk about it. The second is the guilt. Right, that comes along? Well, I didn't ask to be born. Right. And so you know, I have it. And so what do I do? So guilt? And then the third thing is the cost, right, the cost of having the conversation? What does that mean? Whether it is or standing up? Right for someone? What does that mean? I find that those are the three implicit things that keep people silent, it's acknowledging that they have the pillars to begin with the guilt that comes along with that. And then the cost, particularly those who desire to be allies, and stand with Black Lives, or, or, or people of color in general. Dr. Harris,
13:30
what do you mean, when you say the cost?
13:32
So the cost? Oftentimes, you know, people are talking about especially right now about allies. But just like in black history, talk about the Underground Railroad and that there will be stops, people paid prices for being an ally. And I think oftentimes, that is usually what do I lose? Sometimes it's social capital. Sometimes it's the end with how am I going to be perceived? If it's family than it's the relationships? Does this mean now that we have a strained relationship? Because we don't see eye to eye? And I think those are just some examples of costs that may not necessarily readily come to the service surface, but are playing in the background, particularly for white parents?
14:18
I think or even the cost of as black activists have been doing throughout history putting your physical well being on the line in a protest. Yeah, you know,
14:30
yeah, all of those. So when should parents Dr hazard when should parents begin talking with their children about race?
14:41
Very young. I think as toddlers as kids are noticing, just like they noticed different hair colors. They notice boys versus girls, although maybe as we get more gender neutral in our clothing and toy choices that will be less in your face, but you know, they notice concrete attributes of people and things and they're interested in them. So just being able to comment in a matter of fact way about differences in skin color and, and in a way that, hey, that's interesting, that's cool that we have all these different colors is where it can naturally begin.
15:24
So, Dr. Harris, how would you recommend beginning this conversation?
15:29
Um, so I think a lot of times, it's, I would say, as a parent of a five year old, and a four year old, um, you know, interest, you know, when they start to, you know, notice certain things, or say things, you know, you have to get ready to respond. And sometimes it's not easy. I talked about it in the book, but, um, you know, my, my four year old, you know, called, I wasn't sure if it was a man or a woman, but called it the opposite gender. And is that is that a man? She She said, and I was like, Oh, my God. And, you know, elevator is closing. And, you know, so I, you know, I had no doubt she said it loud, right. I thought we had gotten we had escaped, because we had gotten out of the elevator without anything being said. But as the elevator was closing, you know, actually, it was my son, he announces mommies that a man or a woman. And I was just like, Oh, father helped me. So, you know, and I had to get over myself in the moment. Yeah, exactly. And I had to say, well, well, what do you think, you know, and I asked him, so what did he think? And I let him tell me what he thinks and what he noticed. And I said, you know, you could be right. I'm not sure. And that's okay. Because they were being neighborly, they said, Hello, when we said hello back. And I kind of just left it at that. So I think that children drive the conversation, children also show you their interest. Another short thing that I talked about in the book is we were on the Long Island Railroad, because we're in in Queens, New York. And a young boy who was about the same age, same height, he was Asian and German. And he saw my son, and he crossed the aisle from his mom, his dad, and I was sitting on the same side, cross the aisle sat down next to my son, and they just, you know, they were intrigued by each other, you know, they, you know, and it just shows that they were ready to have those kinds of conversations to show those interests. And I think that you watch your child, and you allow them to ask those questions. But that requires being present. So I think, I think as children show interest, I think as the historical moments happen, as we're in this watershed moment, right now, you make, you know, you make a time a moment to to try to address something, you know, whether it's the Sesame Street, 20 minute town hall or a book. So there are ways for parents to be intentional, but also to to allow the child's interests and questions to help help, you know, guide, guide and those discussions.
18:24
I'm glad you raised children's books, I am actually everyone here at creating a family, we all tend to be a little fanatical about children's literature. I really love children's literature and for many reasons, but one of the reasons is the power it has of ating discussions that parents want to avoid, as well as the power of if you're talking about diversifying the power to help you as a parent do that. So I'm going to recommend a couple of throughout this where check out our anti racist parenting guide, and in that we're going to be including these tips, but we're also going to be including specific books as well as parenting resources for you to utilize. And there will be some of the best of the best of the of the of the of the books, both mostly for children, but also for parents. And I also wanted to share three resources or actually, yes, three resources that I think are so helpful for parents who want to diversify, they're both their children's library, their their home library, what books they buy, but also what books they get from the library. And and that's what we're going to encourage you to do is make certain that you have diversity in the books, you're reading to your children, and you want to have black and brown main characters as well as Asian male main characters as well as its Muslim and Jewish we want to show diversity across but you all So can get books that are specific to talking about racism and white privilege and protest, and they other some things we'll be talking about. So the three resources I want to tell you about one is called diverse Bookfinder. And it is a treasure trove of finding they have analyzed, I don't even know how many books or children's books based on and they have all these categories that you can choose, whether it's Black main character, whether it is Hispanic, or Latinx main character is Asian, then they also have books that talk about multiracial characters are children crossing racial divides, you name the category, they can make that the book and then they give you a brief review of it, a really, really good resource diverse bookfinder.org. The next one is the brown bookshelf. And this, that that is the website. And it highlights Own Voices of black authors or brown authors that share the character that share the ethnicity of the characters they write about. So that's another one. And the last one is the conscious kid. Another great resource for finding books that for your child, and the conscious kid actually also has a I don't think they call it a book of the month, but it's something like that for specific types of books you may be looking for. So you can buy your books there as well. Excellent. Okay, thank you. What other ways before we move off of this topic? What other ways can you think of that parents can start the conversation? Dr. Harris, as already mentioned, follow your child's lead, pay attention to what they're interested in and answer their questions. And then I've talked about books as a way in any other thoughts, Dr. hazard for how we can, as white parents make certain that we're talking with our kids about race. A couple
22:03
of additional thoughts, one is B. Intentional, I mean, I guess a broader point is think about diversity as an element of of what you're considering when you make choices about everything, where you live, what school you go to where you enroll your child and extracurricular activities,
22:30
what pediatrician you use, what God just shows us.
22:35
Exactly. If you end up in a neighborhood that doesn't have as much diversity that the you know, as would be ideal, you can certainly be intentional about exposing your child to diversity in activities that you do as a family festivals that you go to museums that you go to. For young children. I don't want to over emphasize this because I'm pretty much on board and limiting screen time. But there are, you know, for that half hour where your child Okay, let's be honest.
23:19
Break Yes.
23:22
With by, you know, by deliberately, you know, tuning into some diverse things, there are some great things like Doc McStuffins, and Maya and Miguel and Molly of Denali, so there and Sesame Street for younger kids really has attended to diversity issues. So those are other activities that your child can engage in that are naturally going to lead to conversations.
23:53
Well, that leads us perfectly into Tip number two, which is acknowledge and celebrate racial diversity. We've talked about some of that, and what when, when we were talking about talk about race, specifically about race. But Dr. Harris, why is it important to acknowledge and celebrate racial diversity, be it through the books we choose? Or they are the media we expose our kids to? In our very limited screen time, right? So yeah, so why is it important to celebrate diversity?
24:23
It's important because you know, the conversations are great and they are our starting point right? But the books and the activities and where you go and what you choose to you know do for family time and where you choose to do it are all also implicitly communicating to your child that difference there's nothing wrong with difference difference is okay, differences part of you know, human nature, we don't all look the same. And so, you know, the conversations are our beginning point, but all of the other things that we've touched upon as entry points and ways in are also implicitly communicating that difference, and to celebrate diversity and that difference is actually can actually be a really good thing.
25:07
And can you suggest some resources, I was thankful that Dr. Hazard listed specific videos and things and shows that we can use any others that you can think of that are part of what we're already expose, that are commonly available that we can utilize as parents to make sure that the media our children are consuming and the events they're going to our diverse events and acknowledge and celebrate that diversity.
25:34
So I know that so one thing I'll talk about just as off the top of my head, I'm Mercer Mayer is an author and titled The book I get so mad. And I remember when my son was a toddler, I got this book because it validated his emotions and being upset. And I think they have like a whole series. So I enjoyed that because it helps to validate their emotions and how they feel as we get older and move into, you know, elementary school children and junior high school children, you know, parents taking them to a local museum or going to I mean, these are things that might happen with school or perhaps in the asbestos free COVID may have happened in school. But, you know, parents are, you know, are taking them to certain places, or to see certain things I know, in New York City, kids start to experience perhaps the theater, right in junior high school or, and, and, particularly parents who may have privilege or have means you have the opportunity to really expose them by going to places, the dance company, Shin Yoon, is something that I've been wanting to take my kids to, especially my daughter, for her to see different types of, you know, dancers. So you know, just there a lot of multicultural things, whether you are watching online, or physically going to something to, again, foster or watch a movie or film and there are like, tons of people who have lists of these things. But those are just some the off the top of my head, that particular book, and then also, you know, multicultural sites that might be available, where you live as a way to kind of begin the conversation again and help them
27:36
talk. And our anti racist parenting guide will have a ton of books that will celebrate all types of diversity. So I would strongly encourage you to check that out as well.
27:53
And I wanted to mention one other specific resource. There's a publisher called barefoot books that really specializes in you know, cross cultural stories, and they have one I mean, there are many interesting books, but one that I really love is called barefoot books, children of the world. And it has beautiful illustrations of all sorts of different dimensions that vary. Like here's all the different homes we live in, here's all the different foods we eat. Here's the different ways we play in different countries. So it's very concrete but very interesting for kids to look at and see the illustrations and learn more about the different ways that people do things in different cultures. But it's also giving the message of hey, we all eat, we all like to play we have family is important to all of us, even though our families might look different. So it's a very it's a book that kids can it's kind of like you know, where's Waldo in that there's a lot of detail in the illustrations and kids can have fun exploring that.
29:09
And it sounds like a fun book for parents to to their kids. Yeah. Which you know, after a while when you've been reading green eggs and ham for a while. It's really nice to have a book that you're going to enjoy. This show is underwritten by the jockey being Family Foundation. hope for the future is what drives the mission of jockey being family, helping to provide crucial post adoption support to all adoptive families so that they can remain strong and together forever. They believe that every child deserves to experience unconditional love of the family, and they aim to make that dream a reality for all to help support them. Go to their website, jockey Bing family.com/donate. All right, so now it's time to move on to tip Number Three. And that is, and we've alluded to it briefly or Dr. Harris day when she was talking about why, one of the reasons that white parents avoided a discussion of race. And that is not being either not cognate not recognizing their privilege or being uncomfortable with their privilege. So tip number three, is to recognize systemic or institutional racism, and white privilege. So what do we mean by what actually, I want to know what we mean by both? Dr. Harris, what do we mean by systemic racism? And then contrast that to what are our tie that into what we mean by white privilege?
30:42
So systemic, systemic, the word, you know, it's relating, of course, to a system or systems, right. And so systemic racism are the ways in which various systems are racist, and or promote racism. And in particular, how it relates to white privilege is the fact that most of these systems when we talk about systemic racism, are favored, right, it's fixed in the favor of a particular group. And in this particular case, in the US, it's fixed toward white people. And so going back to toward the history, looking at history, but also even just looking at various aspects of our socio economic status, so much is coming out or coming out again, as it relates to the inequality. So systemic racism are the ways in which systems that govern our country, our states, our cities, and how they promote inequality. And usually, like I said before, usually the people who are building fit benefiting from these systems, whether intentionally or not, are people who historically are and who identify as white.
32:09
All right, we've talked about one specific white privilege, who is that is the privilege to remain silent. A black family right now or anytime, doesn't have the option of remaining silent on race. And it is through our privilege of being white that we can choose whether or not to talk about that Dr. Hazard, can you suggest? Or you can you give us some other examples of white privilege? Sure.
32:36
The privilege to go jogging or birdwatching without feeling scared for your safety? The privilege of if you're walking down the street, well, let's just say no, let's, as an adult, if you're driving in a car and get pulled over by the police, the privilege, not you might be pissed off that you're probably going to get a ticket, but you're not scared about whether you're going to make it out of that encounter. uninjured and alive. The privilege to go shopping without being followed around or harassed or suspected of doing something wrong. The privilege of not being often asked to speak on behalf of all white people. Then not just not having a daily toll of of having to deal with stereotypes or micro aggressions sort of negative things said about you or related to your race or the group that that you belong to. And here's another one to privilege. That's completely ironic, to me the privilege as a white person, I have the privilege of escaping stereotypes, violent stereotypes, accompany my race. I mean, it's, it's very ironic that one of the most prevalent stereotypes that's probably to some degree driving police brutality is the stereotype that black men and boys are dangerous or that black people in need in general are dangerous. I mean, be a student of history and white people are far more dangerous to black people than vice versa. So those are just some examples of white privilege. And again, the the other privileges for white people is being oblivious to, to their to their privilege, because we don't think of it these are things we take for granted. We sometimes don't stop to think, oh, you know, this is not the same for my my Black and Brown Brothers, they these experiences are very different for them.
35:12
You know, Doc and that raises an issue too that I sometimes hear. And Dr. Harris I'd like for you to address is I will talk sometimes with white people who are on the lower socio economic and they they roll their eyes and they go privilege. I don't have privilege, and I'm barely making ends meet and I'm living paycheck to paycheck don't talk to me about privilege, what would you say to them? After you saw him, what would you say to them?
35:47
Um, so, I mean, you know, the reality of it is, is that you find people across race on various socio socio economic scales, right. And so for people who are, who are wide and and they find themselves on a lower socio economic scale, it does not remove privilege, it just means you're in a different class. But it doesn't remove your privilege, because a poor white person and a poor black person are still working with very different needs, and a poor white person and someone who's Black, who may be by class Nanded a fluent that person, that their color still does not negate the challenge that they will encounter because of the color of their skin. I have had to deal with it, I still deal with it even to this day. And and so, so I understand how they may not feel like they have privilege, but I would have to you know, tell them that unfortunately, you may have a lower socio economic status but your your privilege as a person who is white still Trump's, in many circles, that of a person of color, regardless of where they might be honest.
37:08
I think one way I approach that question, Don is to say is to acknowledge that white privilege doesn't mean that you haven't faced hardship in your life, it just means that your skin color is not one of those hardships.
37:26
That's a great way to Yeah. And to acknowledge it. So Dr. Harris, at what point part of this is also the default that that white is better. And that is that permeates our society, how early in life, do children recognize that and start defaulting as well that that white is better?
37:48
So I think it's the famous doll test? I'm sure Dr. Hazard would know. And I know that people have repeated that again. And again, I think originally, some of the things that were found were as early as three and four. Right? I think now, just sort of, in my own experience, what I've started to see is people both black, white, wherever you are. Girls being allowed to envoys being allowed to have different colored dolls, which I think is is great, that has started to kind of rise up. But still, I would say even as early as three or four. There, there can be a preference toward that. And I can give you a short anecdote. My son who's five watches American Ninja Warrior Jr. and he is a fanatic. And so I noticed, you know, after bath time for over the course of several days, he did want to pull a lotion and I was like, wow, like, we need you to put some lotion on moisturize your skin. And he basically told me that he wanted it to be ashy in order to be white. And he's fine. And so it was I was like, Oh my God. I just I was stunned because his his school right where he was going at the time was predominantly children of color. Um, he has been in other spaces where he has been the only but I realized when I was watching the show that, you know, he's getting messages implicitly right in various spaces in various ways. So kids are noticing it as young as three or four. And they begin to say and do things that show you that there they are internalizing those messages.
39:47
Yeah, that would be yes. So, Dr. Hazard How can parents white parents address institutionalized systemic racism or white privilege? when their children and themselves are likely to benefit from it.
40:06
So the way I think about this question is how do we help children form a healthy white identity, which to me is an anti racist identity. And one side of that is not allowing children to stay comfortable in their relief that they have white privilege. So I mean, some children as they learn about sort of police brutality against black people, I mean, a natural reaction is who I'm glad that's, you know, not going to happen to me since I'm white. And that's an understandable natural reaction, but you don't want to stay there, you want to say, you know, I'm glad that's less likely to happen to you too, but it shouldn't happen to anybody, it's not fair, that it's happening to black people, that's very, very wrong. And we want to work together as a family with other people to make, you know, to make changes so that police will treat everybody fairly and not not hurt brown people either. So that's one side of it. And then the other side dealing with the, with the guilt that Dr. Harris brought up, you also don't want to stay stuck in guilt, because that keeps you silent and immobilized. So, you know, with with kids, you can say, you know, being white doesn't automatically make us bad people, definitely white people, you know, have done a lot of bad things in the past, and some are still doing bad things today. But, you know, we can, you know, we have the choice of what kind of white people we want to be and what we want to use our white privilege for. And so let's use the power, we have to make things better and fair, etc. So that is, you know, that's how I have approached it with my nephew who's my do over since he's my race conscious do overs. Since I was fumbling along with my daughter at the time.
42:19
So Dr. Harris, how do we teach our kids to understand this power inequity? You know, so they can name it, unpack it, dismantle it? And and so how do we do that with our children?
42:31
So I think one of the ways to do it is, you know, is to, you know, change the narrative. So, for example, trying to remember the instance that, that it was, so for example, somebody you know, is arrested, particularly with new shows, and, you know, that usually is black and brown people are disproportionately are shown on news shows, you know, the, the narrow, as you talk, where if a child asks a question, it becomes, well, they say, right, that this person has done something, not this person is a criminal. Right. And so I think it's still the language that gets used. So being black is not a crime being treated unfairly is the issue. And we have to ask ourselves, why is this person being treated unfairly? So I think it's the language and being intentional about that language and being delicate. So that we don't do insult to injury, as it relates to explaining equity and difference. And I think, if you can just say what you said again, so that I can, because there was another point that I wanted to make about that.
43:42
But to name it, unpack it and dismantle it, I think naming it is, is one of the most powerful things we can do as parents recognizing it and recognizing it out loud. So our children know that we recognize our own privilege.
43:56
So the other thing that goes along with that is, you know, sort of this idea of fairness, right? We all sort of have an idea of what we think is fair. And and I think there's a way in which you can you know, how is this fair? How is this not fair? Or if you were in this shoe, you know, you are in this person's shoes or situation, would you? Would you Would you want this to happen to you, and begin to sort of ask your child about fairness and think about your own fairness, I really think that all of these tips and tools are great. But I think also parents have to also be doing their own inner work. So that they can help the so that they can be good guides for this. So I think that it's it's a combination of doing the inner work, which would seem obvious, but also I think it has to do with addressing or beginning to address that this concept of fairness.
44:54
And kids are so tuned into fairness. Yeah, I mean, they at a very young age. I understand fair and so approaching it as what is fair. And even if it's more fair towards you, you can still approach the fact because kids get unfairness, right? At a very young age. Can either of you think of resources that parents can use to help with specifically the understanding of institutionalized racism or white privilege? Again, we're going to be listing some, and our And primarily, many of them are books, children's books, but other and our anti racist parenting guide. Other thoughts? So one resources, let's start with you, Dr. Harris.
45:41
Um, so I just, I was just pulling up website. So there's brightly.com I don't know if you've got that on your list. And then that has a whole list. And then there's another the title of it, oh, well, you know, embrace race. So they've got several, they've got a great list as well. So specific titles, let it shine by Andrea Davis Pinkney is one that I really like. And she talks about Rosa Parks and Harriet Tubman. The illustrations are really beautiful. For boys in particular, because they like nonfiction, I mean, nonfiction, unstoppable, by art Coulson, how Jim Thorpe and the Carlisle Indian School football team defeated army. So this is about back in 1912, US Military Academy, and it's great for ages six to 10. And the last one I'll mention is separate is never equal. Sylvia Mendez and her families fight for desegregation. And that's that one as well. Okay, so you've got that one. Okay. So those are just a few that I've started to pick up. That's been my personal commitment. So something that parents can do is just slowly begin to build your library, even you know, on books that are age appropriate for your child to begin to do that, that's been my personal commitment, you know, is to slowly just build one book at a time so that we can begin to discuss, have the discussion.
47:29
And going back books make it so much easier. And not all, there are a few books, particularly ones that are actually actively talking about racism, that many of them are some of them have sections for parents as well, to kind of guide you through the conversation. So again, it's kind of a, an easy way that easy intro doctor has or any other resources that you could think of specific to talking about institutionalized racism, and or white privilege.
48:01
One I wanted to mention is not my idea, which is specifically about white privilege, and names white privilege. And it's probably I would say, for five to eight or nine year olds. And then another another book that's helpful, and really a website, it's the Barefoot mommy website. And she has a lot of great book lists. And then she's also written an e book called Raising anti racist kids and age by age guide for parents of white children. So it goes from toddlerhood up through middle school. And is is really great at identifying what are the the issues that that might be more specific to different ages and then sort of building as as the building the sophistication of what you're working on with your child as they get older.
49:06
And don't stop reading these type of books to your kids. Even read aloud chapter books, even when your kids are reading I always think it's a mistake for parents to stop reading to their kids. It just because the child can read it also
49:18
for for kids reading that there's some great books for middle schoolers and young adults. I mean, Jason Reynolds is just a master storyteller. And his books I think, are really awakening a new generation of kids and getting them into thinking about this through wonderful stories.
49:43
Yeah, and why books are just, they're also a great resource for parents to read themselves. We tend to dismiss them and think yeah, it's just a why but don't often the stories are very good and you too can learn and if your child is your teen or tween is reading them. It gives you an something to Talk about it gives you a intro to the conversation, because so you could read them together to read them separately but together and then and then come together to talk.
50:09
Yeah, that's a great strategy, I
50:11
think. Yeah, it is. Let me introduce one of our partners adoptions from the heart. They support this show, because they believe in our mission of providing unbiased education to pre and post adoptive Foster and kinship families. adopted from the Heartless founded by an adoptee and celebrate they are celebrating 35 years of bringing families together through adoption. They are a full service domestic infant adoption program specializing in open adoption. You could see adoptive parents and birth parents share their stories on their a f t h TV airing Tuesday mornings. That's adoption from the heart TV, you can follow them on Facebook or YouTube to catch every episode. All right now we have talked about talking about race, celebrating differences is our second tip. Third tip is recognizing systemic or institutionalized racism and white privilege. Then our fourth tip is to talk about with your children the violence against people of color, as well as protest and resistance. We, of course want to begin with mentioning the book that Dr. hazard is co author on and that is something happened in our town, a child's story about racial injustice. Dr. Hazard just briefly tell us the premise of that book.
51:40
That book is a book of our time, although it was written in 2016 and published in 2018. But it starts with some young kids hearing about a police shooting of an unarmed black man. And then it's a white girl named Emma and a black boy named Josh, they each go home to their respective families and ask a lot of questions and have had a lot of discussion. And then at the end of the story, they have a classroom situation where they have to make decisions and see if they stand up for what they've learned about fairness in their family discussions.
52:20
Okay. So Dr. Hazard, I mean, Dr. Harris, how much should we share with our children? At what age? Should we start to talk to them about these hard topics? Or is it better to shield them, because he's really our grown up problems?
52:36
So I think Dr. hasn't had mentioned earlier, as we, you know, talked about, you know, you can start to have the conversations with them early. You know, I think that it's about the questions and the comments and what your child is noticing. But like today, with all that's going on, if they're protests on, you know, on the TV, and your child is President watching, and they ask a question. You know, in that moment, I think parents have to take a deep breath, and kind of jump in with both feet, and not to say you're going to overpower them. But it's kind of, you know, scaffold in your building. And for a moment, you say, Well, you know, they're talking about equal rights, well, once equal rights. Well, that means that we're fair that everybody gets to do the same things. And so you begin to try to scaffold for them. So that every time you have a conversation about equality and, and fairness and race and protests, you can move. Do you remember when we talked about this? And do you remember when we talked about that, and then eventually, there's a, you know, there's a theme that we've been a having these conversations, and then B, there's this, you know, we've been talking about this in different ways. So I think that you can start to talk about particularly kids who are in that elementary school age who are who have gone to school, and going to school, especially, because more often than not, they're having these experiences, we talked about the media. Kids today are consuming much more media than television. And so they're also encountering it as well, YouTube, I mean, my, my son watches Rebecca's and Mo Mo. And I can name several different major YouTube stars that that my kids follow. And so all of these things are messages that are being you know, sent. And so, you know, I think elementary school age, those that kindergarten age, those kids who are in school are a great way a great place to start.
54:45
So Dr. hazard is a child psych psychiatrist, psychologist. How do we start the conversation? Let's let's break it up into talking about violence against people of color. At what age and how do you You start that conversation with children without unduly burdening them or frightening them.
55:08
So, if I had a five year old, I'll tell you what I'd say right now. And I'm interested since Yvette actually does have a five year old, I'm interested in what she said. But I think I would say something. Like, a black man was unfairly killed by a policeman during an arrest. He was in handcuffs, and he didn't have an have a weapon. So there was no reason for the policeman to do what he did. And policemen have, you know, black people have been treated unfairly in our country in many ways, and and including by policemen, and these, there's protests going on. And the protests are to change things so that policemen treat everybody fairly, especially treat treating black people and brown people fairly, I would have no problems saying that, in fact, I think parents should be saying that to five year olds, and maybe four year olds. And that's essentially about the level of graphicness. That's in our book. And I can tell you that I mean, we've read our book, we've read our book in small groups with four year olds, and then in classrooms with five year olds and up, and kids, you know, are not overwhelmed by that right there. They're a little surprise, sometimes sometimes not. They're sad. They're out there kind of outrage, like, you know, that's, that shouldn't be happening, but they're not traumatized. And, you know, they they understand that it's unfair, and, and it, you know, helps to mobilize their natural idealism and desire for fairness to move things in a good direction. Yeah,
57:10
say, can I just add that, you know, and perhaps, you know, Dr. Hazard, you know, I think sometimes we underestimate right, children, particularly today, today, we underestimate them. And we think that they are fragile, and they are fragile in, in certain ways, right. But I think just as Dr. Hazard has demonstrated, you know, and just even what she said, I thought was perfect. And, you know, we underestimate what they can handle. And I think it's partly because we want right to hold on to a certain level of idealism, and we want to protect them. But the reality of it is, is that if we're not talking to them, they're still getting the messages, regardless, whether it's the TV or the device, the messages are still coming in, in some way, shape, or form, and we have the ability and the responsibility to help shape them. And I think that just what Dr. Hazard offered was perfect, and straightforward. And then, you know, the kid might say, okay, and walk away, and that might be enough for them. And but then they may come back later and say, Well, why is this and why is that and to allow, again, that sort of scaffolding and development for continued conversation, but I thought that was really great, but kids are not as fragile as sometimes like to believe.
58:40
I think children do have a resilience that we need to, to respect and have have faith in.
58:50
Yes. And I would also say that, even if you are convinced your child has not heard about what's happening, they probably maybe not your three year old, but your four year old, five year old, they're going to start picking up just from other kids. And certainly by the time they're in school, they're hearing some of this.
59:12
Yes, your choice is not really whether you're going to protect your child from this, your choice is whether you're going to participate in processing. That's right. Yes. With
59:21
that child. Yes. Yeah. So So Dr. hazard is good as a child psychiatrist, keep saying psychiatrist, psychologist. What At what age should children be allowed to watch the news?
59:36
That's a tough one. Because I do think that kids should be protected from the more graphic images that a
59:45
lot of the videos Yes.
59:48
So and it also depends on the sensitivity of your child, but I would generally not be letting most l elementary children watch the news with me. I mean, there's some children's versions of news, which means that you've got to be intentional, more careful, and not just have the screens on all the time or children are going to see stuff that you're not really wanting them to see. So, but you know, middle school and high school, I think, yes, and and be there to process with them. That'd be my general rule of thumb.
1:00:29
Okay. And one thing I would also add, when, again, going back to when we're talking about protest, and the resistance to the violence against people of color, one thing that I think it's important is to make certain that we ground our kids, that sometimes that anger is not a bad emotion. And sometimes anger is the right response. And quite frankly, if you look back through our history, our country was founded on on anger and injustice, we had a revolution, we dumped tea, whether or not that's actually a true story. But anyway, you know, all of that, that we can ground what's happening now, into historic and good things happen as a result. people marched and, you know, Martin Luther King, and if we talk about Rosa Parks, we can go back and talk about the Boston Tea Party, that and talk about anger being a an emotion that we can use for good.
1:01:25
I think that's a great point. And I would have no problems with In fact, I think it would be good for parents to videotape or save a portion of the news that's dealing with protests, including dealing with angry protesters yelling with some righteous anger. I mean, that's, that is good for children to see the power of protest. And that righteous anger can can fuel that and can fuel change.
1:01:54
Okay. All right, so we have four tips that we're sharing for how to raise a non racist child. Now I'm gonna do you have anything else you would like to add? Dr. Harris, I'm going to give you to begin with you. Other things you might want to add, for talking with white parents raising white kids, and wanting to raise children to become non racist citizens of this world.
1:02:23
Um, I think that one of the things I would offer is that we need you, right, we need you to, to, to do this and participate.
1:02:41
You are important to this work of building a better country and a better future. And so, to just offer that first is that we need you. Second, this is a big thing for me, is to do again, that inner work. I can't stress that part enough. So often, we get stuck in the conversations and and all of the ways that we can talk about and around. But unless we're dealing with the stuff that's in on the inside of us, one of the things I've wanted to I realize now that I wanted to mention before I had it in my notes was that, you know, sharing parents even sharing their own story about how they became conscious or aware of race, I think is extremely important. We've been talking about stories and how stories can be so powerful parents testifying to their children, about things that they struggle with, or are beginning to understand and see differently, I think shows a whole lot, it means being vulnerable. But I think that is also helpful and beneficial as well as building a closer relationship with your child. So you know, the two three things would just really be a you're needed, your work is needed. We need you to parent your child. And and to begin to instill values as early as possible, you're not a bad person, because you were born with privilege, but you can help shape and make a more equal world. The second is to do your inner work, whatever that might be. And then third, consider writing your story. Write in a letter if you can't say it out loud to your child. But, you know, share your own story of awareness and bias as ways to help your child learn about you as a person and as a parent. And, you know, those things I think can be just as powerful as all of the other many resources that we've made.
1:04:56
That was powerful Dr. Hazard any Final thoughts on how to raise an anti racist child?
1:05:05
A couple of things. One is, as part of that internal work, I think a lot of that internal work is looking at your own history and your own feelings. Part of it. And part of it for me, during the course of writing the book, and afterwards, has been learning more about the history of this country, that the true history of this country. And I think that's very helpful in helping white parents understand the details of structural racism, you hear that term, but when you when you really go back and learn, you know, from the economic system, the criminal justice system, the educational system, then you really understand what black folks have been up against. But and then the second part is to walk the walk, don't just don't just do all this internal work and talking, those are all very important steps. But then you got to do some stuff. And, you know, hopefully, that's diversity in your personal life, but it can also be helping your children be upstanders, not bystanders. So talking through situations with peers that happen and helping them you know, have ideas of how they can stand up for for fairness, and not just be silent. And then another thing we've alluded to, but haven't said specifically is that doing some social advocacy as a family, and that can take a lot of different shapes. It can be protest march, but it can be getting involved with community redevelopment efforts, you know, there's there's just a lot of things you can do as a as a family to expose your child to those kinds of activities.
1:07:01
Thank you so much, Dr. Joy Harris, author of The ABCs of diversity. And Dr. Ann hazard author of something happened in our town a child's story about racial injustice. Thank you for being with us today to talk about this really important topic of how to raise an anti racist child that remind everybody that the information given in the show is general advice to understand how it applies to you specifically, you need to talk with work professional. Also, the views expressed in this show are those of the guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of creating a family, our partners or our underwriters. Thank you so much for being with us and I will see you next week.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai