Panel of Young Adult Transracial Adoptees

What is it like to be raised by parents of a different race. What can parents do to help their transracially adopted children. We talk with 4 young adults that were transracially adopted by white parents. Katie, adopted from China as an infant. Nathan, who is biracial (black/white), adopted as a newborn in a domestic open adoption. Angie, a black Haitian American, adopted domestically. Jack, adopted as an infant from Vietnam.

Transcript

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* Note this is an automatic transmission. Please forgive the errors.  an automatic transmission. Please forgive the errors. 

spk_0:   0:08
Welcome everyone to Creating a Family Talk about Adoption and Foster Care. Today we're going to be talking with a panel of young, adult, transracial adoptees about their experience growing up and now is adults. But before we start, I wanted to tell you that we're totally aware, obviously, that everybody's life has been really turned upside down by this Corona virus in the isolation schools being closed. And we're going to be bringing you in the next two weeks, two shows directly relevant to your experience in what's happening right now, we'll be talking with Carol Loser, whom I absolutely love about surviving and thriving while being cooked up with your kids during Corona. And then the following week will be talking with Heather Forbes about home schooling, kids with learning challenges during Corona isolation. So make sure that you let your friends know. Ah, stay tuned. If you haven't already subscribed to the podcast, do and those shows will be coming up, and I know you're going to enjoy them. Today we're going to be talking with a panel of young adult transracial adoptees about what it's like to be adopted and raised by parents of a different race. We have Katie Bullard, Nathan Faust, Jack Terrell. Oh, an Angie leg, and I'm gonna let them introduce themselves. However, I thought what I would do is I'm gonna kind of ground your story and to tie you into this topic. So what I'd like to do and I'm just gonna go around to each of you, and, uh, I'm gonna hit the highlights of your adoption sort. So what I'd like you to answer is tell us how old you are now, what is your race or ethnicity? And then what is the race or ethnicity of your parents? How old you were, an adoption and where you were raised. And how diverse was the community in which you were raised. So and if you get lost and forget some of those albums remind, you know, that's a lot to have to remember at the beginning. So, Katie, let's begin. Katie Buller, Let's begin with you. Tell us your ah, How old are you now? And what is your race and what? Your parents,

spk_1:   2:16
rice. Yeah. So I am 24 now about to be 25 in a couple days. Um, my parents are both white and I am Chinese,

spk_0:   2:29
okay? And ah, how old were you at adoption and where do you live? And is it or where were you raised and and how diverse

spk_1:   2:37
wasn't. Yeah. So I was four months old about when I was adopted. I grew up in Brevard, North Carolina. So it was a pretty small town, so it wasn't very diverse in regards to individuals who were identify this Asian.

spk_0:   2:56
Okay. Nathan Nathan Faust. All right. Can you tell us your age? And then you're your ethnicity in a race and that of your parents?

spk_3:   3:06
Definitely. So I'm 23. I'm mixed race of black life, but I'm black presenting. So both my parents were right. I was adopted at birth from Salem General Hospital and I was raised in Portland, Oregon.

spk_0:   3:18
Okay. And how how diverse would you say? The community in which you were raised? Your neighborhood, community schools, that type of thing.

spk_3:   3:26
Portland isn't exactly the most diverse place in the world, but they were always really welcoming. And I never really felt left out because of our race.

spk_0:   3:32
Okay, Jack Carella, tell us your age now your ethnicity and race, our race and dead of your parents?

spk_2:   3:40
Yes. I'm 24 years old in 13 25 next week. Um

spk_1:   3:44
oh, my goodness. You and Katie. Happy birthday to both isn't okay.

spk_2:   3:49
I'm Vietnamese American. Um, I both my parents are, you know, 2nd 2nd generation immigrants. So I guess they're white. Um, my father's Italian American. My mom, uh, this will be Russian. American. Um, look good.

spk_0:   4:04
Okay. You know, and and how old were you at adoption?

spk_2:   4:07
I was five months old when I was adopted from Vietnam.

spk_0:   4:11
Okay. And, uh ah, where do you Where were you raised and how diverse was your community? Your neighborhood?

spk_2:   4:18
I was raised in Maplewood, New Jersey. Um, I suppose now it is. It's a little bit more diverse, but when I was growing up, I was one of the very few Asian Americans in my school. Um, they're actually quite a few, I guess. Ah, Chinese American adopted girls. Ah, that I grew up with. But I didn't really connect with them. And so, you know, I guess when I was in high school until later,

spk_0:   4:46
Okay. And Angie, Angie, leg, tell us how old you are now. Your race and that of your Ah your parent

spk_4:   4:55
now? I am 35. I am Haitian American. I was born in Miami, Florida, and I've been with my family since I was a baby, but I actually wasn't officially adopted until I was six years old. I, uh, like I mentioned was port of Miami, but spent most of my life on the Connecticut shoreline. So I spent most of my life in suburbia. Very, um, just not diverse at all. But I had divers places to go, so I mixed it up. I lived in a suburban town, but I was able to get to the city pretty easily.

spk_0:   5:36
Okay. Yeah, that makes sense. My family is white. Okay, Got it. All right. And you were raised by a single mom. Does that, right?

spk_4:   5:46
Yes.

spk_0:   5:47
Okay. All right. Got it. All right. So, uh, we're obviously talking about trans racial adoption. So let me just start by saying, Was it hard for you to be raised by parents of a different race? And I think given that we're a panel and it's his audio, so I'm gonna direct questions to each of you, but, um, I would like for everyone to be able to chime in on every question. So I'm just kind of direct. Um, but feel free if you want to join in. And I haven't directed to speak up and just say who this who you are and then and ensure your view. All right. So was it hard for you to be a race from a different race from your parents and you? Let's start with you.

spk_4:   6:25
No, actually, it wasn't. I really. They didn't make me feel different. And so I didn't actually understand that there was a difference. It just felt very, very normal to me. And I didn't realize it until my teenage years 12 13 kind of understood that it was a different situation. But then the actual insecurities or the questions and things started to pop around that time, but for the most part, family, family.

spk_0:   6:55
So for you, that was it wasn't particularly hard until you got to be the Tweens early adolescence, and then you started trying to figure things out.

spk_4:   7:04
Totally. Yeah.

spk_0:   7:05
Yeah. Jack, how about you?

spk_1:   7:09
Um, I don't think it was It wasn't

spk_2:   7:11
difficult. For the most part, I didn't realize like I was a different race until, like, maybe I was four and maybe five. Um and you know, other kids in school would make it apparent that, you know, I would be different. And then I finally understood that I was not Wait. And then, you know, I was Asian. That was Vietnamese. Um so but my parents were very encouraging And, you know, in the fact that you know, they wanted Thio have me understand what adoption? Waas and I was a Vietnamese American and that they still love me even though I wasn't the same as that.

spk_0:   7:44
Okay. And, Nathan, how about you act properly? Maybe if the beginning would be helpful If I would say maybe Nathan is bi racial on infant adoption adopted domestically. Okay. So go ahead, Nathan. Just thinking it's probably helpful to remind people so that they understand who's speaking. Okay, So, Nathan, go ahead. How about for you?

spk_3:   8:05
I would say that Well, I agree with everybody else that I didn't really realize its significance. That I was a different race to my parents until I was around my middle school years. And it really came from other kids just pointing out to me, just saying Hey, why your parents? What you and you're not. And it took me, like, a little bit just to comprehend what that meant, but also so I'm openly adopted. So I've known my mom my entire life. But so until I was eight, I didn't ride. Other people didn't have their parents. I thought that everyone had just two step preparing just in their lives at all times. But,

spk_0:   8:38
my dear Klum

spk_3:   8:39
is my other white happens well, And so I didn't really I wasn't able to see the fact that I was black, especially being raised important, which isn't again the most diverse to be in the world. But so it once I really started recognizing that I was mixed race and that I wasn't the same as her parents. I had to go find the answers myself, but so that was mainly pointed out to me through other kids around me.

spk_0:   9:06
I'm wondering if it was I'm thinking that it might have been harder because you have three parents, all of which were white. Ah, because it sounds like you're you did not have contact with your black father biological father. So it was that made that make it harder.

spk_3:   9:23
I wouldn't say made it harder. My biological father and I came back in the contact when I was around 11. And so we just think he actually interested in Australia. I think that's why I was a little hard to get in touch with him, but three that I've always been able to hunting in my life. But it would reach out the questions if I could. So

spk_2:   9:40
just

spk_3:   9:40
on the day to day basis, it was being raised in a predominately white environment by predominantly white parents and not recognizing the significance of being black in the environment and what that meant and why wouldn't be the same. What else?

spk_0:   9:53
Okay, And Katie, what about you and Katie was adopted as a four month old from China.

spk_1:   9:59
Yes. So similar to, uh, other folks. I didn't realize I was adopted until, um, about middle school. I knew that I look different from my parents, but that was really all it waas. Um they always made me feel loved and accepted, no matter what, and especially when So I come from ah, multiracial family as well. So my younger brother was adopted from Vietnam, and so it was, uh, sort of a way of knowing that I look different, but I looked similar to my younger brother. So it didn't ever really click until other kids my age started saying, Oh, well, why aren't your parents Asian? Cause you and your brother are both

spk_0:   10:55
Asian myself. You see, I'm seeing a sounds like for everyone. It's around the middle school 12. 11 to 13. Let's say that that it becomes more of an issue. And from all of you, it sounds like more because it was brought up through your peers. And Katie, let me just confirm you said you didn't really realize you were adopted. Do you mean you didn't realize that you were adopted actually adopted or you didn't realize that you were transmuted the importance of trans racial adoption wasn't something you realized?

spk_1:   11:25
Yes. So the importance of it was something that just never came to mind. Yeah. Okay. Um and so the next

spk_0:   11:34
question is, did you when you I think you may have already answered this and Yeah, no effect. I wanted to that because you were Did you face any issues? And it sounds like the issues that you face. We're all coming from other kids and and the and generally, around the early adolescence, Katie had a brother that was also a transracial adoptee. Ah, Nathan, do you have any siblings that are also transracial Adoptive?

spk_3:   12:01
I do not. I was raised as an only child. Play do 3/2 siblings to my dad.

spk_0:   12:06
Okay. And, Jack, do you have any siblings that are transfer? Actually adopted as you're

spk_2:   12:12
not? I've my three of three siblings who are older than I am. Where the biological Children of my parents.

spk_0:   12:19
Okay. And Angie, what about you? Do you have any siblings?

spk_4:   12:24
Um, it's a little bit more complicated, but my mother, who actually ended up adopting me, didn't have any Children, so I'm her only child. But the family that I was adopted into as a whole, I had two brothers and one was part of the family, originally a birth child and the other older brother was adopted.

spk_0:   12:50
Was it a trans racial adoption?

spk_4:   12:53
No. No.

spk_0:   12:54
Okay. Got you Okay, Katie, do you think that you're the only one with experience with ah, and adopted sibling? Do you think it was easier for you because you had someone who looked like you?

spk_1:   13:07
Um I know really sure. I don't think it was easier or harder. It was just natural. Um because he I was pretty young when he was adopted. I was four, so I don't have very many memories of that time. I do actually also have two older siblings who are biologically related, who are also transracial. And so they are mixed with African American, I think some Cuban and maybe Puerto Rican. I believe in there as well. And so I remember them being adopted. And I think that was a little more challenging because it was some social, not social. Excuse me. Um, age dynamics at play, from going from the oldest child to the 2nd 2 youngest being the only girl to having an older sister. So it was quite a few things. I think that we're all going to play. But my parents always made sure that my younger brother and I and then my two new or siblings on we're still part of a family. And I grew up knowing them because they were also being fostered by my aunt as well. So it wasn't to complete strangers coming to the house. Okay, um, we think

spk_0:   14:31
a lot now, or at least those of us who were in the adoption education world. We think a lot about racial identity and how that impacts transracial adoptees. You know, as a young child, most often you were under the umbrella of your family, and pretty soon you're seeing is just a part of your family. Or that's how we hope that happens. Um, but as you grow and you go out in the world, people see you not only as a child of your family, but also as a Chinese American or a black American or a Vietnamese American. And so I'm hoping this is not too personal of a question. But I I'm wondering that as a young adult now, how you would describe your comfort level with your racial identity. Ah, let me start with you. Jack and Jack just remind everybody was adopted as a, uh, under six month old from Vietnam.

spk_2:   15:19
Yeah, um, I'm very comfortable with, um the fact that you know I'm adopted and that you know, a Vietnamese American living and, um, you know, living in today's America. Um I mean, I came to terms with, Like who? I wasin my identity. I guess when I was, like, about 16. Because that was, like, the first time I ever visited back to Vietnam. Um, with my family, Um and then I really it really shaped my perspective, Um, about like who I waas. And then on top of that, I also accidentally, um, Matt, my birth mother and, uh, her family as well. So, um, yeah. Answered our question.

spk_0:   16:03
Okay. Um, all right. Ah, Katie, how about you? Do you have a comfort? How comfortable do you feel about your racial identity?

spk_1:   16:12
Yeah, I'm very comfortable with being Chinese American. Um, I don't If I had to venture, I would say there was maybe a year to where waas feeling, Um, socially isolated in a way, um, but even then I wouldn't really, ever I don't recall ever truly feeling displaced in a way.

spk_0:   16:45
Okay, Nathan, how about you? And Nathan was ah, is a multiracial adopted, adopted at birth. I

spk_3:   16:53
would say that when it comes to racial identity, I'm becoming more and more comfortable with it. But at the same time, I'm still growing. When I was growing up, I didn't have that many African American gold models in my life. and blow account that everyone around me was very loving. No one was able to really answer the questions that I wanted to answer, just But what does it mean to be a black man wants me to be black in America. And so I became more and more cognizant of it. I had to. I kind of developed my own identity. And the sad thing is pretty much what I had because it really leading know that I was in on this or aspirin. Resource is all I had was media, and so at the same time loves growing up and developing into the person that I am today. I would also tie that in with personal stereotypes or the ways that black men should be. And so what? I felt that what I found is that that wasn't the most healthy thing for me, and so that kind of related a little bit. But over the past couple years of really taking a step back and ask myself what it means to be me and what does it mean to be black in America?

spk_0:   17:58
What has helped with that at what has helped you, you said as a child. Turning the media wasn't necessarily the most productive for you. So what has helped you now as an adult

spk_3:   18:10
I think would help me most is an adult is actually recognizing the areas where I've lacked education through my own. Not really asking for help. I thought that I could figure this out by myself. And I didn't want to people to hear about my insecurities with my own identity, because that is what you think. I was weak or something like that. But once a really open myself up and said, Okay, I need help. I'm want role models, like open myself up for the culture and find out who I am. One thing I asked for help. In that way, people really started coming out of the woodwork and their own very willing to help me and join me on this journey. And so it's been about me finding role models, actually asking the questions and getting out of my comfort zone.

spk_0:   18:51
Okay, Excellent. Um, and Angie Ah, How about you? And Angie is a black Haitian American race by a white family?

spk_4:   19:00
Yeah, In the beginning, it was definitely difficult. The stereotypes, A lot of people like to just assume you're supposed Thio talk a certain way and act a certain way. So growing up, I know that was hard, but meeting my real family was really, really hopeful. And it helped me to understand. I mean, the gene pool is actually very incredible, the science behind it and, um, the fact that you can carry so many characteristics and talent. And I had all of these different artistic talent inside of me, and I didn't know where they were coming from. And then when I met my family, I saw, you know, my brother's an architect, My father's a painter, my other brother is a film director producer, and these are all things that been inside of me and that I've pursued without even knowing. So I do feel like I have a very, very strong identity. I've had a strong identity, but it's been challenged my entire life

spk_0:   19:56
when you say it's been challenged. It sounds like now that you have met your birth family, you see using roll, you see, you see mirrors of your talents and and where some of those came from, Um uh, what was it challenged prior to that Is that what you were? Is that what you

spk_4:   20:12
mean? Yeah. I mean, it was vindication that, you know, I am being my true self, regardless of who I was raised by, You know, despite my external environment, I am true to myself. Really? And it just It just allowed me Thio, understand? You know my environment a little bit more.

spk_0:   20:35
How old were you when you met your birth family?

spk_4:   20:38
24

spk_0:   20:40
24. Okay, Got it. We hear from some transracial adoptees that they are sometimes proceed, or they feel like they're proceed as if they are not being black enough or Chinese enough for Vietnamese. Enough by members of the racial community,

spk_1:   20:56
haven't you? Have

spk_0:   20:56
you experienced this? Katie, Let me start with you.

spk_1:   21:00
Um, I don't think so. I think the people who I've met who identify as Chinese one was adopted as well into ah, set off white parents so she didn't have the Chinese culture background. Um, and then some. A friend who I have now whose family is a mix of the Asian cultures. Um, they're pretty, I think westernized when it comes to their culture as well with some things. So I've never felt like I wasn't Chinese enough by any means. I think I've sort of taken some of the more eastern and social traditions just because I like them a lot. But I've never been told outright. Oh, well, you should have done this because you're Chinese. So clearly it's the waiting. You should do it or whatever.

spk_0:   22:12
Okay, Nathan, how about you? Um, have you either felt that you were not black enough or that you were being perceived Is not black enough? I mean, there's a lot of of racial epithets that could be thrown around that people, some people feel like that. Some people have reported being called. Um have ah, have you experienced that in your life?

spk_3:   22:36
I definitely have. So what I found is that I kind of put that on myself, but at the same time is fair to say that I really wasn't prepared for that feeling because especially being mixed race, there was some way behind the words when people said it wasn't black enough, you could say, Well, I mean, like, I'm not 100% black, but then when people are like, Oh, you're not waiting like, yeah, I'm 50 pence on Black. And so I found myself in the middle there. There's just one of a kind from Earl sweatshirt, which is just two black with white kids to fight for the blacks. And, like, once they hear that, that's where he really resonated with that. It was

spk_0:   23:08
joking.

spk_3:   23:09
Okay, I'm on this dividing line, and I don't know what side to go to. But

spk_0:   23:13
as

spk_3:   23:13
they started growing, what I found is that what's most important is that, I mean, and that I'm controlling myself first. And then I can begin recognized the significance of things around that where it's not excluded from both wrong, including both.

spk_0:   23:28
Okay, Yeah, that makes sense. Jack, have you ah ah felt that perceived that you were being thought of as not Vietnamese enough or not Asian enough or whatever. Um, by that community,

spk_2:   23:43
um, I've only ever felt that too, like very, very small degrees. Um, you know, just like, you know, very insignificant comments from, like, people within the Vietnamese community, you know, down here in Philadelphia or in Vietnam itself. Um, but they also understand that, like, um, you know, once they get to know me better that like I was raised, you know, I was adopted. I was raising and let no wait family and that, You know, I'm also open to learning more about who they are. So I you know, I could be more like that,

spk_0:   24:17
Okay? Yeah. Okay. You describe that that you're actively seeking, um, role models in that in that community. Angie, how about you?

spk_4:   24:27
Yeah, absolutely. I've definitely experienced that. Where people, you know, like I mentioned a little while, though they may I talk to white or whatever the scenario is. But Oreo is the terminology that you get, you know,

spk_2:   24:42
black on

spk_4:   24:42
the out guide white on the inside. So they actually dealt with that growing up from from all sides, every nationality, and I'm a dark Haitian, so I don't get mixed up, you know, like sometimes with, you know, like some of the other guests, they're lighter skinned. It can almost some people, the white community, I guess we can say that most of us grew up in can almost give, like, a leeway when you're, like, really, really dark. What I have found just me personally is that you know, there's a very, very specific way that I should be acting, talking and and it should be what they see on the TV, and it's not. And it was a lot of people off.

spk_0:   25:30
And it is. He's definitely felt it from the white community. How about from the I don't know if you had much of a Haitian community, but are the pep in a black community whether anonymous, Haitian or not?

spk_4:   25:43
Yeah, absolutely. I'm in Connecticut is a very diverse state. Ah, lot of our cities are very, very diverse. And I went to a very diverse college and I would get that all the time.

spk_1:   25:54
Absolutely. And how did that? How did that

spk_0:   25:58
impact to of not knowing Nathan describe feeling like he was indigenous, walking the line in between the two? Uh, how did that did you feel like you were walking the line between the white and the black community are not fitting into either one Or did you feel like you fit into both?

spk_4:   26:15
I still walk the line, and I still you know, I can fit into boat. I can fit into both better now because I have so much more self awareness and I'm an adult and you know I don't let the emotions take over me. But if there is, it's It could be really, really difficult. It is a fine line, but I can typically, you know, go go bounce back and forth without having Thio actually change my personality. I know ah, lot of people who have to change their personality in order to fit into a certain group. And I used to do that because I was completely unsure of who I was once people started pointing out the fact that I was different or that my situation was different and I'm like, Oh, yeah, it is different. And then, you know, that's where it messed you all up.

spk_0:   27:08
So you would used to do I think, what we call that code switching where you would you would change who you were to fit the to fit the group you were with. And while that's not exclusive to adoption at all, it certainly is his a part of it. So, uh, do you still feel like you do that? Are have you have you felt, um, are do you do it less now that you were in your thirties?

spk_4:   27:32
I feel like so I'm in sales as well. So I feel like there is a time in a place now for everything. I can present myself in an authentic way to everyone, but I still think there's a little bit of weaving between, you know, groups and nationalities and, uh, even age groups. I mean, you don't talk to Children the way that you talk to adults, you know what I mean? So I think there's still that play, and it taught me how to do that successfully, but still stay true to myself, which I feel very, very confident in myself at this time in my life.

spk_0:   28:12
Which is, of course, what we all hope it is important in our lives that we remember. Amen.

spk_2:   28:20
All

spk_0:   28:20
right, so you guys have all alluded to some of these, but okay. I want to hear about what you think. Maybe about was going to say what you think your parents did write that helped you. So let's let's, uh can you give some tips? Ah, from your own life, either from what your parents did well or didn't do Well, uh, for other parents who are considering or are just starting out in transracial adoption. What would be some tips that that you would suggest for them to consider and do to make it easier for their Children. So, Andrew, you were just the one who was speaking. So let me go ahead and start with you. What would be and everybody give one tip and they will come back around. So be if you've got, uh, think of a couple and then give one and then we'll come back around and she's starting with you. What would be a tip?

spk_4:   29:11
If you are to adopt an African American child, take them too. An African American salon or barber? That is a huge tip. I think my mother was very scared. They didn't know what to do with my hair growing up, and it was difficult. And I believe that if they had done that sooner, it would have been. But there was no service is for them. They didn't know You know what was going on? They just haven't they And there was no Internet, really? So they couldn't even google it. But don't be afraid, You know, to reach out to the as the community of your child and asked for help.

spk_0:   29:53
Okay. On specifically. Well, that's two tips. Really? Cause that's in general knows. Okay, in general, ask for help, but in specific. Ah. Asked for help with hair care. All right, Katie, what would use B A And what would be a tip that you would want parents to two are thinking about or in the beginning stages of trans racial adoption to know?

spk_1:   30:15
Yeah. So I would say, probably when your child is growing up, tell them stories of the adoption process and then adopting the child and sort of that early childhood formation, like mental settlement stage. Um, so you make it a normal part of life, so they know that their adoptive, but they'd never feel like they were unloved in a way.

spk_0:   30:47
So, uh, let me see if I am I summarizing you correctly to say that make sure that the discussion of being adopted is something that happens early, frequent and is a natural part of growing up. And is that what you're saying? Yes. Okay. Perfect. Um, Jack, how about you? What would be your tip for, uh, uh, parents at the beginning of this process?

spk_2:   31:10
Uh, the beginning of the adoption process. If they were going to done? I'd say, Well,

spk_0:   31:17
transracial in specific transracial

spk_2:   31:19
100. Um, I'd say give the child access to, um, pallets of where they came from, whether it be, you know, films, music, cuisine getting in touch with the community. Get anything with other communities of transracial adoptive families that have adopted from the same country. You know, I think giving them access in the option to do that while you know, growing into, um, themselves as American, I think it would be really helpful, um, for them.

spk_0:   31:58
Okay, I'm really glad you talked about books and film and things like that, because that's infinitely doable. All right, Nathan, your tip

spk_3:   32:07
What? I have it so that my parents, much like Jack said my parents gave me every opportunity to be able to experience my culture whenever I could. Such as if there's an exhibit come to town for the books. On my shelves were books about black kids, but it was another something that was forced on me. Like you have to be black. Happy recognizes it was okay when you start recognizing these things were gonna be there in value aside, and you're gonna have all the resources available. It's always with your choice about how fast and how hard you want to be in here. Racial identity.

spk_0:   32:41
And I know you're You've described that you were actively in that stage of learning and becoming an understanding what it means to be a black man in America. Have your parents been an ally in this process for you?

spk_3:   32:56
They definitely house. Um, I would say they were allies in the sense that they could always recommend books, but they were read themselves too often to be books first. Before I did just a understand the frame of mind or he's trying to understand the frame of mind that I would be coming from. They taught me the significance of certain words. They talking about certain options, especially the young age where if such as if there was a large scale event that was going on that pertained to my race, they would always like invite, are encouraged to go, um, but I had the opportunity go to Mississippi to learn about the civil rights movement, and they really pushed me and support of the entire time, and I lose incredible experience in like a back they put aside all the time. I wanted Thio decompressed. He breathed discuss. So then just being their support systems for me while go to Madrid showed that it wasn't a load of this.

spk_0:   33:48
Okay? And so that's another tip. Be an ally, be a supportive, don't be threatened. And and and, Ah, let your child know that you aren't alone. Actually gave a lot, including reading books first that you could talk about him with your kids. Yeah, okay. And to Europe. Any thoughts on any tips to another tip that you might give?

spk_4:   34:08
Um, I know that my family told me from the very beginning, like if you mentioned that the process is getting to know the process right from the beginning, they never not told me I was adopted. You know, I just thought it was normal to be adopted and tow have this mixed modern family. But they were very, very useful from like I remember even being like 34 years old and knowing that I had a mother somewhere else, and so on and so forth. But they love me unconditionally. I mean, that at the end of the day, I absolutely ended up in a better situation than I had then I would have. And they just loved me unconditionally during some of the toughest times in Florida. They wouldn't even let them adopt me. It was illegal, so they were fighting segregation all out of love. So you just got to keep going. It's a tough process. And you just gotta keep pushing forward if you look that child.

spk_0:   35:12
Okay. Katie, do you have another tip?

spk_1:   35:16
Mmm. I mean, I think what I would say, it's been covered. I'm Chris is available and speak openly. Love unconditionally.

spk_0:   35:31
Okay, um, Jack, any other? Do you have any other tips?

spk_2:   35:36
Um, I have tips in regards if you're going to adopt, say, of someone from Vietnam, especially since the rules have changed. Um, So these days, you cannot do, um uh, no adoptions of Children under five years old. Um, there was an issue a number of years ago. Where, like you know, I guess there are problems with, you know, human trafficking and things like that. So international adoptions and even local adoptions in Vietnam, you know, are restricted to Children five and up or for Children who have ah, disability or groups of siblings and so on and so forth. Um, my tip for for parents who decide to do that, um, you know, is, um I would get you know what? Let's go. Go go back to America. I would get in touch with, um, you know, Catalyst Foundation. Um, you know, it's It's a group that has an organization that fights human traffic in Vietnam, but also, um, we are community of Vietnamese adoptees who, um, you know, stay in contact together. And every year we meet, you know, for this culture cab, you know, over the summer for a number of days, and it's really fulfilling for a lot of the kids who come out. So, like I do that every summer of my girlfriend and I we belong to you for that and, you know, survives like mentors and role models for the kids because, you know, they grow up in communities that are predominantly white, and you know they don't have anyone to live up to you.

spk_0:   37:15
Absolutely. Um, Nathan, you have any final words of any final tips to give before we move on to another topic? I

spk_3:   37:24
would say that you do you recognize that it's not going to be easy, especially because outside of the tops itself, the wrinkle of the translations option is turning there. And do not think that it's going to be easier. That's gonna be something you've solved overnight. It's a constant learning process, and it's always evolving. Situations at times isn't how much you already know based on how much your child already knows. That through that just recognized It's not easy. But again, we won't be working.

spk_0:   37:52
All right. It wanted to circle back to something that extra, I think, Jack, you were the one who mentioned both of these homeland tours as well as culture camps. These are both more common of, obviously homeland Torrey. More common international adoption. And so our culture camps, Um, so less common in domestic adoption. But so let me just, uh, talk a little bit about the importance. Ah, and I'll start with you, Jack. Then how important would you say Homeland Tours. And you've just mentioned the culture capture immensely important. How important was, um ah. Homeland tours you. You only went on one, I guess, but how important was that for you?

spk_2:   38:34
Um, I think that is, uh, a very key fundamental thing to implement. Um, when the time is right for, you know, the said child's, um in terms of like, shaping their identity. Um, you know, I I didn't go on kind of this cultural tour, you know, I went on, I went to Vietnam independently with my family, but, um, you know, when I was 11 I did the coach I did to be non culture camp, um, once, But, you know, from there, I always wanted to go back and do it again by the eye was always tied up during the summer. But, like, I rediscovered catalysts when I was in college. Um, you know, I wanted to volunteer and reconnects, but, you know, um, Titlist foundation and reconnect with, you know, the enemy Vietnam Culture Cap. Um, I think you know it. Really, Um, you know, it really is a really fulfilling experience to be able to do that.

spk_0:   39:33
There's a Okay, so that's another. I suppose tip would be, too, if at all possible. Two. Well, connect your child of their culture every way you can. And if that obviously is involving an international adoption to either take your child back to their country of birth or to find a culture camp and for ah, Children being adopted transracial. Here within the United States, there are other opportunities to expose your kids less so camps, but but certainly other opportunities to expose your child to the culture from which they were from which they were born. Let me pause for a moment and remind everyone that this show is underwritten by the jockey Being Family Foundation. Their mission is to support families after adoption so that they they thrive throughout the lifetime of adoption. They're committed to providing support to families nationwide and to help these forever homes become last new places of love. Your support is vital to their success and please visit their website jockey being family dot com to see how your sport can impact families nationwide.

spk_1:   40:49
All right, I wanted to

spk_0:   40:51
talk a little bit of the two guys here because I think that and I might be wrong on this. In fact, Katie and Angie might disagree, But I've often wondered in some ways, and I've talked to other ah transracial adoptees who have said they

spk_1:   41:04
feel like it's

spk_0:   41:05
harder in some ways, being a guy and being trans racially adopted. And some of the things they have said is that, um, the perception for black men in the U. S s hard and then for Asian men are our standards of, of, of, of attractiveness and our standards of beauty, I guess, is our, ah, masculinity and stuff don't always lend themselves to to to expand to Asians. And so Asian guys ah, feel like they're often left out. Um, so let me talk. We'll speak with both of you guys. Jack, let me start with you. Um, do you think any of that rings true? Course you don't know what the female experiences like, but the, uh, from from, ah, Asian guy or from a Vietnamese guy standpoint, were there things that were specific to your gender that you think that and race that made it more difficult.

spk_1:   42:00
Um, I felt yeah, I

spk_2:   42:03
felt it was slightly difficult. And I don't know, You know, I was asked myself, feel like it was me or, you know, something that I did, or, um, it was just the fact that, you know, I'm just, you know, an Asian, you know, it's just it's always been a question that's been on my mind, but, I mean, you know, it's, um I think, Yes, it was kind of tough, I suppose, growing up. But, I mean, I kind of, you know, when we come back again, like, you know, I'm comfortable with myself and accept myself for who I am. And, you know, I have a support system, you know, in place. So I think that's like, you know, the most important part.

spk_0:   42:47
Okay, Nathan, how about you? And nowadays, with the, you know, the fear of people have for their black young men And so I mean, how it is being a black male in the US being raised by white parents. Does that make it? Do you think it's harder for for males and females?

spk_3:   43:05
I wouldn't say it's harder for men and women. I would definitely say they, um all genders have their own issues. To go through on that mine specifically mind specifically, weren't exactly the easiest for me, like again trying to come by Daddy. And then they recognized the weight and significance of being a black man in America. So there is some

spk_0:   43:25
points

spk_3:   43:25
where let's say, if I heard the any word, how am I supposed to react because that's that were never really was around me growing up because I was constantly surrounded, falling forward, thinking like Americans who would never use that word by president. So I started hearing it for the first time. I just thought, Am I supposed to have a violent, visceral reaction? I'm not supposed to let it go, but I supposed to educate how line supposed toe, How'm I supposed to react. So that's just one example of dusting your big black American. And then there's the additional things about being a black male in America, where there's all these stereotypes of how you're supposed to be hyper sees when you walk on the streets of people like people. When people started crossing the street and look at me, I'd say I was out of fear. Don't start happening around 14 or 15. I didn't get it. I thought that I was doing something wrong and not just be myself. And so my parents they were worried about me, too, and for different reasons, again has dating back without a handle this because they hadn't been educated to read a lens of being black in America. So we all just had to burn together. We're really culminated together. After Trayvon Martin shot where? My mom to start saying, Okay, I need like you can't wear your hoodie up. And so I just thought Why? Like when we're important, this has never been a lesson. Conveys me before and she didn't have the right words to explain it. But she just knew weight and significance of me walking on the street, being just like six foot three dark skins wearing a hoody and just like the power that that house in America.

spk_0:   45:03
So how did your parents navigate that? Because you were a teen. Ah, young teen at the time. How did they find or how should they either? How did there? How would you suggest others find help in figuring out how to help your child into the example you gave would be, uh, how should you respond to the n word? Ah, you know what is an effective way to to handle that? And of course, it would probably depend on the situation. So how did your parents help you figure out how to be a black man in America?

spk_3:   45:40
So the way they went about it was they started teaching me just the facts about the significance of it. But then what I'm most impressed about definitely love it so much. They just looked at the situation, said we are not best equipped to help Nathan here, so we're going to support him. But also, we're gonna encourage him to find and reach out to people who are going here with us. Clings to him, explain the significance. And so when I went on my trick in Mississippi, we went tomo till memorial. And I heard the story from the boys from the voice of a black man who's lived that experience and just been surrounded by that his whole life and be recognizing. Okay, this is actual historical and cultural way, not the contra, greeted on the textbook that impact people's lives every single day. And so to have parents of inconstant resource is finding people who are able to talk to and just being there to be able to deeply and listen to me for his lawyer to talk about it because we all recognize something incredibly important in my life and they're putting me in front of their own here, I would say uh, working happen.

spk_0:   46:46
Is it? Yeah, their fear of losing you. To be honest, I think sometimes white parents are afraid that if their Children identify too strongly are with a with a different culture, that somehow there they will lose their child that their child will become Ah, Maura Maura, part of a culture that they're not a part of. And it sounds like your parents did not feel threatened in that

spk_3:   47:11
way. My parents didn't feel threatened in that way. Now they saw that. Whoa. I mean, one thing my dad said to me when I was 17 it's just we were at a restaurant. Hate leaned over and said, Do you realize that people probably don't recognise were father and son just because we look so different? My dad's white with, like, gray hair, and I'm much darker than him with a black curly hair, has a straight. So we just we looking credited different from each other. And so he was able to recognize that he wasn't the best equipped for this and that he's gonna be able to raise the question. But there's just some things that he wasn't gonna be able to teach because he had lived experiences.

spk_0:   47:52
Exactly. And then you have to learn along with you, but that he he couldn't be the teacher

spk_3:   47:59
was most quickly

spk_0:   48:01
and Angie, you've talked about moving toe coming to understanding Maur of your racial identity. Was your family able to be supportive or did they feel in some way perhaps insecure with your, uh, with your expiration?

spk_4:   48:17
My family was very, very supportive. And, uh, I remember I was about 15 14. And the Internet, eh? Well, had just come out and we were getting access to information we had never had before. And I went online, and I do. My mother's my birth mother's first and last name, and I figured Miami where was scoring, and I found her. And I got her phone number and I called it and she didn't speak English. And so that was kind of It was like this, like, quick end. And I told my mom about it and she did get very upset. And she said exactly what you said. She didn't want to lose me, and I was still young at the time. I was still, you know, in grade school, so very well could have you know, who knows? I understood her her fears. But then at 24 years old, where when I actually did meet my family and I was traveling the world to meet them and visit them and have these experiences that she was so happy for me. And she knew, you know, I was an adult, and we were She knew that I wasn't going to. I was an adult, you know? I wasn't going to go live with somebody else already moved out of the house and everything. So she was just happy that I have the experience. But she did go through a point where she was very insecure about you know what might happen if I found my family

spk_0:   49:43
there. And in Jack, you've talked about having some, um, cultural experiences in the with the Vietnamese culture. Were your parents supportive of your of your exploration?

spk_2:   49:59
My parents? Yeah, of course. They're always supportive. Um, you know, I mean it, which I guess, which specific event are you referring to?

spk_0:   50:09
I would just in general, you know, as you learning more about your culture and more interested in how you identify as a Vietnamese American.

spk_2:   50:17
Oh, yeah. my parents were always very supportive. Um, you know, like I said, you know, they never tried to push. Um, you know me trying to learn about more. Ah, and number. You know, bracing Vietnamese culture and heritage. Um, but, you know, it was never Oh, that was never always the facts with me, though, um, you know, I was always very resistant, Thio learning about Vietnamese culture and heritage and anything even remotely Asian. You know, when I was younger, you know, I always thought that was you know, that was something that would get me in trouble. You know, just with like, um, other people because I wanted to fit in, I wanted to be white. I wanted to be like my siblings, my parents, but, like, you know, like, you know, when I was 16 you know, it wasn't until I came more, you know, the terms about you know that. You know, that's when that happened. But my parents were always there for me.

spk_0:   51:10
So, as a younger child, until really up until mid adolescence, you didn't want to learn about your birth culture because you felt that it would make you stand out is different and highlight the fact that you were different. Yes, that's correct. All right, let me pause now to thank two of our partners as a nonprofit creating family partners with agencies that believe in our mission of providing unbiased support, both pre adoption as well as post adoption and these air agencies who are willing to support us because they believe in our mission. One such agency is Children's connection there. An adoption agency providing service is for domestic infinite options and embryo donation and adoption throughout the U. S. As well as home studies in post adoption support two families in Texas and we have this Delmar. They are a license nonprofit adoption agency with over 65 years experience helping to create families. They offer home study only service is as well as full service in infinite option, international adoption and post adoption. And they also have that Foster to adopt program. You can get more information about them online at Vista del mar dot org's we received in anticipation for this show, a comment from another transracial adoptee who is African American, raised by white parents, and she talked about feeling very comfortable with both races and She described this as an advantage that seldom talked about, but she she said it was an easy fluid ity. I thought that was a great way to say, an easy fluidity that she thinks that she has that often that that others don't have s o and I. Well, I suppose being raised by in a family of trans racial family, you would have that as well. But I thought that was an interesting point. I could also see that would be a burden to feel like you have to be the, you know, the bridge between the two. So I could see it both ways. But anyway, I thought it would ask Get your opinions on on that. Being being comfortable being in in both worlds and being able to understand and see both worlds. So, Katie, let me start with you. Um, do you see that at all?

spk_1:   53:30
Um, I don't think so. I don't think I have enough, um, knowledge about the Chinese culture too. Say, the night conf it were bridge between the two. So, for me personally, I don't have that.

spk_0:   53:49
No. Okay. Nathan, what about you?

spk_3:   53:53
I would say that there's really but it came through work, and it did come through recognition that before anything else, I'm going to be me first. And so once I found that comfort and was able to really just get out of my conference on something Still learning how to do it's never like finished process.

spk_0:   54:11
I don't know. It isn't table that

spk_3:   54:13
definitely isn't found that I'm able tohave easy. You're doing big. But if you get

spk_0:   54:20
you're hoping that it will become But it's not yet.

spk_3:   54:24
I am hoping so. Yes. Growing up important. There wasn't very much racking planets around you. They're easily accessible. It's so bright I am wearing. I felt I found that death had been accepted into both cultures very quickly. Just still interesting adjustments.

spk_0:   54:40
Okay, Angie, um, do you see in your about 10 years older than the other? So you may have 10 years more hope, Shall we say more wisdom? Um oh, arm or experience anyway. Ah, do you see? Ah, would you agree with this other comment are or do you not see so much of that?

spk_4:   55:00
I think for everybody, it's something different because that person, that particular person could also be an extra Burt which means that they're just capable to of blending, you know, into different communities and societies in general. I do think that it gives us a very well rounded view point, which is an advantage in society, especially when it comes to communications, especially when there's things like social media, where all the information's owl and there's so many stereotypes and so much judging. You know, we have this superpower to kind of be able to see both sides. And like I mentioned before, I do tend to be able to leave through different communities and cultures. And being in this mixed family has definitely helped me. You know, uh, establish that characteristic so much better. But it depends on who the person is. An introvert is not going to work the same.

spk_0:   56:07
That is such a good point. I'm glad you raised it. We tend to wait. One of my pet peeves is we tend to treat adoptees, as is this fungible unit. But of course not only is being adopted one aspect of their life, but we have to take their human, their temperament and into account when you're exactly right. That, uh, that who we are and and just our fundamental temperament and personality absolutely influences our experience. So I'm really glad you brought that up. Absolutely. Jack, how about you? Um, what has been your experience on moving between the Vietnamese culture and our and the and the ah, white culture? White American culture?

spk_2:   56:50
Um, I find that, like, you know, moving to the white culture. And, you know, it's something that's very comfortable to me, you know, because you know of my family. And, you know, that's how I was raised. Um, another thing about, like, the Vietnamese culture moving through that is like, it could be like, I still find it very enlightening and very, you know, it's like a I'm still discovering a lot of things every single day on every single, you know, moment that I have the opportunity to be able to do something related to it. Um, and, you know, I you know, I think both experiences, um really help shape. You know who I am?

spk_0:   57:31
Both the experience of being a crowd that makes sense. Both cultures and experiences.

spk_1:   57:35
Yes. Yes. Okay. Well, thank you all.

spk_0:   57:40
Katie Bullard, Nathan Faust, Jack Carella and Angie Leg being on this interview. today. I really appreciate your your presence and your wisdom. Quite frankly, you're helping shape with the next generation. Ah, their experience will be, and I'm and truly appreciative of that. And ah, truly appreciative of what you're offering to two adoptive parents. Because you guys are the experts. Really an adoption. Certainly in trans racial adoption you are, and Ah, and we need to learn from you. And I am very appreciative of you being here. Let me remind everybody that the views expressed in this show are those of the guests and do not necessarily reflect the positions of creating a family, our partners or are underwriters. Keep in mind that the information given in this interview it's general advice to understand how it applies to your specific situation. You could work with your adoption or foster care professional. Thanks for joining us today, and I will see you next week.