Attachment 101

What do we mean by attachment and what can parents do to help their child attach. What can parents do if they are struggling with attaching to their child. We talk with Dr. Casey Call, the Assistant Director of Education at the Institute of Child Development at TCU. She is a researcher and trainer for Trust-Based Relational Intervention.

Transcript

spk_0:   0:06
* Note this is an automatic transmission. Please forgive the errors. 

:   0:07


spk_1:   2:38
Thank you so much for having me, Don. I'm excited to be here today.

spk_0:   2:41
Yeah, um all right. So let's talk. This is, uh we're assuming that people, even though we know most people have some idea that attachment we want to start really? At the beginning. So what is attachment? And quite frankly, why are we hearing so much about it? Why is it important to a child's development?

spk_1:   3:01
Attachment is really just the the relationship that we have with our premiere in caregiver or caregivers that begins from EMI really can begin prenatally or from the first moment that we meet. Um I think the reason that it's so important there's two things that really stick out to me. One is that your early relationships kind of provide the road map for your future relationship. And so attachment becomes important because it sets the stage or kind of built the scaffolding for all of your future relationships. So peer relationships, marriage, relationships, work, relationship, and it also helps our bodies and our brain learn how to regulate.

spk_0:   3:52
Yes. Oh, really? vital for every aspect of our life.

spk_1:   3:56
Yes.

spk_0:   3:57
How does attachment developing kids who are raised from infancy and a healthy functioning family? I guess what I'm really asking us. What does healthy attachment look like? And how does it develop?

spk_1:   4:08
Yeah, so I always joke with my students that they've been in a lot of developmental classes, and they memorized Erikson's psychosocial stages of development. And they always learned that from ages 0 to 1, it's the time of trust versus mistrust. And so we really dive into that. And how does a child learn how to trust? And we look at it. We have. We have a institute. We have what we've called. We labeled the attachment cycle. And basically what it says is that, um, you know what a baby will cry because they haven't need. They might be hungry or tired or sick or bored or cold. And then, you know their body is in distress during that time. And then when a caregiver comes to meet that need, then they receive comfort. So then they know their body is calm and they have their needs met. So they're getting these little need met over and over and over again. You know, thousands of thousands and thousands of times as anyone with the new baby can tell you

spk_0:   5:11
right now, they have a

spk_1:   5:13
need constantly. And so they're getting these needs men. And what happens is they begin to develop trust because they, when they cry, you come. And so that that's held. The trust versus mistrust really kind of plays itself out. And that's how attachment develops its Dr Purposely stalling. Say, it's saying yes, and we're saying yes, I'm going to meet your needs And yes, I'm gonna take care of you And yes, you can count on me. And so out of that, they developed a sense of trust that someone else is gonna help meet their needs. But then they also develop a sense of and self worth because they, they baby begins to believe that, um, I'm important matter. And then they also learned that they developed their voice, which cell traffic is still the efficacy. When I cry, you come until I have some effect over my environment. And these are the lessons that you know in an optimal care giving situations. Babies will learn within their first year of life.

spk_0:   6:15
Yeah, nothing is Is Maur eerie hand unsettling. And then too either witness yourself are See videos of Children in cribs with needs who are not crying. And they have loved that crying is ineffective, that they are not important that they cannot trust. And that is it is heartbreaking.

spk_1:   6:38
Yes, they've lost their boy. It

spk_0:   6:40
isn't

spk_1:   6:40
Be much heartbreaking. Uh

spk_0:   6:42
huh. So what events We just described one of them. But what events can interrupt the normal development of healthy attachment? One has to be just described being raised in an institution where your needs are not met. You're one of many, and your individual needs are not important. So that's one. But let's talk about some other events that can interrupt normal attachment development.

spk_1:   7:07
Um, so another one that that we deal with a lot of the child welfare system is multiple caregivers and multiple placements. And so Children who are removed from their biological parents and put into a foster adoptive home um, that can disrupt attachment. Um, if you have a caregiver who has trauma of their own, um, that has that, you know, it's still not resolved that can disrupt attachment as well as a caregiver who maybe has mental health issues or substance abuse issues. Um, it's really just a caregiver. He's not meeting consistently warmly and, you know, on a regular basis

spk_0:   7:58
you mentioned removal. And I think that some people have the idea that any child who is removed from a, um, from one home in place or one caregiver and placed in the care of another person that that that is a disrupted attachment, but that then it will result automatically in a failure to attach again. So if a child has been in a situation where they have been able to form, they were may not be ideal, but they had formed attachment. It does that, Ah, what is that predict as faras their ability to form attachment to a new, totally different caregiver?

spk_1:   8:40
Well, so babies will form attachments. So it's It's not a question of if they will foreman an attachment. Um, I think the question is more. What is the classification of that attachment so you can have secure attachments or insecure attachments. You can have attachments that are organized or or disorganized. So if a child has experience with a caregiver and then is moved and has and then has a different experience with another care giver. Their attachment classification can change. There was actually a study done. Bye. Mary doesn't believe that the University of Delaware, where she looked at babies who had been removed from the biological appearance and been placed with foster care and I think wasn't about within about 30 to 90 days, they had taken on the attachment classifications at their foster parents.

spk_0:   9:43
Oh, interesting. So they reattached. But there were, But they attached in there tap to mimic that of their foster parent of my understanding him. Correct. Interesting. All right, So what we tell people is that if a child has had a a strong, healthy attachment Ah, that bodes well for their for their ability to form a healthy, strong attachment to you. Is that what you see as well in your research?

spk_1:   10:13
Yes, that's that's exactly right. We, um this is in the total. We don't have any research to back this up, But what we have seen through our therapeutic camps is oftentimes Children who have been adopted internationally who have spent time with their biological parents and then, like a tragedy happens like disease. or famine or nutrition. And then they were placed in tow, institutional care and then adopted. They they seem Thio have your attachments and Children who were directly placed into orphanage here to make

spk_0:   10:51
another example would be in certain countries, um, Children, Well, and in the U. S. As well. Sometimes Children are placed in, uh, really strong foster families and given one on one attention. And so they come to their new families, and then that happens here in the U. S. As well. It happens in certain countries internationally, so Children come even if they're adopted at the age of one or two. They have been in an environment where they have formed healthy attachments, right?

spk_1:   11:22
Any. Any time you get a healthy attachment, whether it's in a foster home or with the biological parent or with, um, Sarah, get care giver, you're I think about it like a garden. You're planting seeds for future healthy relationship.

spk_0:   11:37
That's why

spk_1:   11:38
I always think about you know, they say that it takes one person to change alive, and that might be a mentor or advocate or a teacher or a counselor or someone, and I think that's what you're doing is you're modeling healthy relationships, so it can never be. Um, it's always gonna be helpful.

spk_0:   11:57
Exactly. Ah, it will always be helpful. And, ah, it's I love the expression. It only takes one. And it is so true. And I think that's what motivates a lot of us is to we hope that we are Get me, Please, May we be the one? Can we be the one to step up and be the one for that child and and really help him? Let me pause for a moment and remind people that this show is underwritten by the chalky Being Family foundation. They want you to know that they have a backpack program that is available to all adoption agencies. And if your apparent listening, you can let your adoption agency no. And in this backpack there are things both for your child as well as for you for your child. There is, of course, the backpack itself, which is child's initials embroidered on it. There's also a cute little bear and warm blanket, but there is also, in addition, a parent token in the parent. There are resource is available for you as a parent on They're really useful and very valuable, and it's free. It is their mission to post adoption support is their mission, and they want you to know that. So if you're a parent, let your agency know if you're in agency. Uh, you do have to apply as an agency, so it's easy to do go through their website jockey being family dot com, Click on the backpack program. It's super easy, and you can sign right? So we're often, um, in the position of having a child place in our home, either for adoption or for fostering. And and we what are some signs? As parents, we know the importance of attachments. So what are some signs that we might look for to note that this child may have attachment issues?

spk_1:   13:48
I think a one really important one is this queuing? And so when a child has a secure and a healthy attachment, they're going to turn to safe adults to get their needs met. So if you see the child is having issues with attachment, they they try Thio, one of two things the night of either tried to stuff everything and kind of internalize it, deal with it all not reach out for help, not let you put Amanda on. And when they get hurt, not come to you and your sick try to take care of their feelings and emotions and destruct on their own, So that would be our internal as our or the other way is that they would be extra maligns er where they could be really emotionally reactive. Um, there is kind of like they overreact to situations. Um, they might try to keep you keep your attention all the time. Um, and in my knee, I think, of course, all Children are running at some point,

spk_0:   14:55
but no, you know

spk_1:   14:57
it when we see patterns or trends. Okay, they're in distress. They need help. What did they dio? That's really what we're looking at. Do they accept here from others? Um, can I give care to others? Do they know who they are? Um, do they have any for the able to kind of identify their knees and then used your voice to get their needs met? Those are the things we're really looking for.

spk_0:   15:23
What about things? We hear a lot about the importance of making eye contact and things such as that. How important do you think that is? As a sign, not important by an in and of itself, but as a sign for a child that may be struggling and with more significant attachment issues.

spk_1:   15:42
Yeah, you may see things like the inability to make eye contact wth e kind of turning away or not liking touch. So, you know, they like their kisses off. They pull away from hugs,

spk_0:   15:58
become rigid and becoming rigid. When when, Uh when you're trying to give them comfort or affection,

spk_1:   16:08
right, they don't know how to accept it. Um, you also see oftentimes just kind of, ah, hypervigilant where they're kind of always on alert. I mean, you can see it because they startle easy, and they may just he dissed, regulated easily

spk_0:   16:28
and have a hard time getting back into regulation once dis regulated,

spk_1:   16:34
yes, they're

spk_0:   16:35
coping

spk_1:   16:35
skills. That's one of the things you know. That first year of life is so important when we're talking about building relationships and for regulation is because when your native met in your body is just, you know, distress and just regulated and you're crying. And then caregiver comes to comfort you. Your nervous system is learning how to regulate itself. Your brain is learning how to regulate itself. It's like I'm just stressed now. I'm comforted. I'm distressed, down, comforted, and we were talking about that happening. Thousands and thousands and thousands of times. And so that's that's kind of how attachment that's the stage for regulation. And so when you when you when you don't have a healthy attachment, then oftentimes regulation becomes a real issue.

spk_0:   17:22
So I think in terms of attachment is falling along a spectrum from me. We pet you. Either It's not a black or white, whether you either are attached or you are not attached. It's more of a spectrum issues, so from mild to severe, the issues could be either from mild to severe. So could you describe some of the typical behaviors that might appear along the spectrum? And if you want, go ahead and begin with healthy strong attachment and then walk us along the spectrum to help us understand some of the distinctions between how attachment issues can progress.

spk_1:   17:57
Yeah, so sometimes I think of attachment on a continuum, and because I have my researcher hat on, I think of it kind of in terms of classifications. So I think of secure attachment kind of in the middle. And then if you go out to the left, I think of, you know, anxious avoidant attachment. And if you go out to the right, I kind of think of anxious, ambivalent attachment. Um, And so when I think about secure attachment, the behaviors that you'll see are they're comfortable accepting affection. They're comfortable asking for help. They tend to get along with their peers. They have good social competence. Um, they have a voice. They can recognize their knees. I mean, simple things, like knowing when they're thirsty or hungry or cold or lonely. You know, those become more advanced, but you want to start with simple things and then so understanding their needs and then understanding how to get their needs met. And then when you go when you move to the left, to the more anxious, avoid an attachment, Um, the behaviors that you'll notice would be things like taking care of of stress on their own. So instead of turning to people to get their needs, that like, you know, I I dropped this, but on my toe, you know help me. It's okay. I'm gonna figure it out on my own. So maybe I turned towards, um, other things for comfort other than people or my caregivers so I might turn towards toys or my turn towards food or comforting in another way, other than relying on my caregiver. Um, you'll see additional behavior's kind of on that part of the continuum. Would be, um a Children might tend to be withdrawn. They might try to be. They might seem really independent and try to take care of everything than cell.

spk_0:   19:59
But it's so if you move to the right, Yeah, uh, ambivalent attachment. What? What does that look like?

spk_1:   20:09
That looks like trying to keep their caregivers attention. Um, so maybe seeming cleaning your needy being really behaviorally, just regulated kind of temper tantrums crying. They might be easily upset. Um, they they have a low tolerance for frustration. They might seek help even when they don't need it. So I used to be an elementary school teacher, and these were the kids that were always at my desk asking for help, even when they were capable of doing it themselves. Um, they might seem emotionally kind of volatile. You don't know when they're gonna erupt

spk_0:   20:50
or what will set them off. Right? And I think

spk_1:   20:55
that one of the important things is that all three of those kind of attachment styles are organized, so they have ways of dealing with distress. Um, what we see with Children who have had, you know, have had a abuse or neglect or more kind of dire circumstances that their behaviors, they become disorganized in their attachment where they don't have any clear patterns on. But this is where you see the extreme behaviors you see their behaviors chaotic. It may seem really unpredictable. They may escalate really quick. Um, they may in adolescence, they may have, like, you know, lie to you even when you just solve it. Kind of really bizarre type things. They're highly, highly, highly attuned, a nonverbal cues so looking and they might not understand all of them. Not different but nonverbal cues. So they may see your face and think that you look angry when you really look sad. Um, but they pay a lot of attention to nonverbal cues.

spk_0:   22:03
It's one other

spk_1:   22:03
survival strategy

spk_0:   22:06
and ah, and I'm glad you mentioned survival strategy because very often. The behaviors we see even the most annoying ones are actually survival. Survival strategies they have worked in some way are this child's perception is that they have worked in some way to protect them. Um,

spk_1:   22:27
right, these are actually adaptive behaviors.

spk_0:   22:29
They

spk_1:   22:30
kept them alive.

spk_0:   22:32
Exactly. Ah, and intense. Why they're not easily extinguished because they are important behaviors. Ah, and it helps to understand the why. Because that influences how you approach it. Way here.

spk_1:   22:45
That's one of the thing. Sorry. Go ahead.

spk_0:   22:47
No, no, that's what I'm going to say. That one here

spk_1:   22:49
I was gonna site that was that was one of the biggest home hall moments that we would have when you're doing the whole connection camp is that if we could get parents and professional to change their viewpoint from looking at Children's behavior as survival strategy that you know, as opposed to manipulation or control or being willfully disobedient,

spk_0:   23:11
that look,

spk_1:   23:12
that's the turning point

spk_0:   23:13
who may

spk_1:   23:14
have built compassion

spk_0:   23:16
exactly. Then we could become compassionate to what this child is going through, as opposed to just annoyed by their behavior, which is a reflection of what they're going through exactly we hear a lot about reactive attachment disorder. Rat is what it's called. It is. It is. It's all over When when you read anything at all about adoption or fostering, you will quickly come across the word rat. The acronym Rad Reactive attachment disorder. What does Where does that fit? Ah, and the of the continuum, that spectrum that you've just described, which is organized in three different categories and then completely disorganized. What? What is reactive attachment disorder And how common is it?

spk_1:   24:05
Um, I don't know the exact, um, the way that how common it is, I can tell a reactive attachment disorder. I can tell you that disorganized attachment is in a typical sample is about, you know, anywhere from five to I can't 15% of Children. But when you look at it maltreated sample, it's about 80 percent or above. And so when you look at a sample who has experienced abuse or trauma or neglect, um, then disorganized attachment is, you know, typically, more than 80% of those Children are disorganized in their attachment on dhe. So I think the biggest thing that I've seen is that in order to help these Children It takes, huh? Adults who have the self awareness to kind of have to process their own attachment in order to be able to help a child move towards a secure attachment.

spk_0:   25:13
Uh huh. S so it takes an adult who is willing to, as you say, be able to also see the wise of the behavior as opposed to just the behavior switch.

spk_1:   25:25
Right. Being able to understand, what does that need? Um, sometimes parents will say, Oh, you're doing it for attention. Okay, Well, then let's figure out, you know, what is that need? How do we need that need In a more proactive way?

spk_0:   25:41
Yes. So we have people contacting us with worries after just a few weeks of a child being in their home or their family and their the family and the child are both in the midst of adjusting to a total of people of everything. And and they they are concerned that their child has reactive attachment disorder or we'll never be able to attach. And there their concerns air riel. But what is a reasonable amount of time to give a child before parents begin to want to? Ah, diagnosis a new attachment issue.

spk_1:   26:18
Dr. Purvis used to recommend one month per year of a child's life. So if it'll come to you at three in three months of intense intervention, not just life is normal, but of intense intervention with that child. Um And then if you're still seeing, you know, I mean, obviously, it's not gonna be perfect, but if you're still seeing really troublesome behaviors, then that would be a time to to seek additional help. But one of the things that she also recommended was, when you bring a child home, you have to start over from that from that first year that you know the eriksen psychosocial stages of building trust. And so we have to be able to. Would we first bring a child home is make those needs. Whether they're 10 or two, you know, it's gonna look a lot different. To meet the needs of a 10 year old is a two year old were two months old, and so it's giving, she used to say, was giving yes is its investment parenting. We're putting those yes, is in the bank. That's why she was the queen of bubble gum, that camp, she

spk_0:   27:23
could, she

spk_1:   27:24
could say, Do you want to beat the bubble gun? Yes, I mean the 1st 2nd that she would meet a child and she was getting lots of yeses amid a bank. And that's how we build trust. So sometimes we would challenge. We challenge parents, too. Pick a day and have a day of yet where you know it's not. It's not spending money on things, but it's spending your time on things, you know. Yes, I'll go play soccer with you. Yes, we can go on a walk. Yes, we can play this game. Yes, we can, you know, do Barbies for four hours or whatever it is. Men t really give those yeses and try to build that trust and meet those needs in a really proactive way.

spk_0:   28:00
It says exactly exactly like her. I'm smiling at the bubble gum in it that I can absolutely imagine. So what are some other things that parents of newly adopted or foster kids could do to help their kids attach? Finding ways to say yes, finding ways to meet their needs to really good beginnings. What are some other things

spk_1:   28:22
and we talk about engagement and you and I mentioned this earlier about healthy touch eye contact. Making sure the tone of your voice is, uh doesn't sound harsh or Maine when you're being playful, right? Really big paying attention, Thio matching the child. We call it behavioral matching. But if they're you know, if they choose a red ball at the store or, you know, a red cut take you to the Red Cup cake, too. So you're just trying to find ways to explicitly connect with them as faras, you know, finding things that you have in common. But then also implicitly through, um, you know, healthy touch. I contact the tone of voice. Being playful is cannot be emphasised enough. It is so important because when we're playful, um, with Children that that disarms their fear and allows them Teoh be in a place where they can learn and feel safe.

spk_0:   29:28
And when you may being playful, Do you specifically mean to be playing games? Or do you mean in addition to that, a playful attitude of things? What do you mean specifically by that?

spk_1:   29:40
Yeah, I think a playful attitude is MME. Or rather than jumping straight to correction, um So, for example, if a child rolled their eyes or gives you a taxi, you know, tone of voice or demand something responding in a playful manner. So, uh, you know, saying, Oh, are you asking her? Tell it, or can you try that again or Oh, my gosh, I don't believe what my ears have heard. Or, you know, something like that. Rather than going what did you just, you know, starting on a lecture or, you know, going down the path of a substructure when nurture might be better.

spk_0:   30:21
Okay, so those are some things some tips for newly adopted or for actually for all Children, whether or not their newly adopted or not, But not. But I'm really good. So you talked about the fact that that Children who have come to us, ah, at a later age or who have experienced abuse or neglect or I've just had their whole life disrupted because they have been removed and placed in our home that that intensive work is often helpful from the beginning. In fact, you were saying that the time period for which one needs to allocate for a child to adjust really starts at the time that we're giving were being intentional on our work with that child. But when we reached the point where we think that a child needs therapy, Ah ah particularly attached a therapy to help them attach. Um, what type of therapy is effective for kids with attachment issues?

spk_1:   31:23
So I think any type of therapies that is relationship focused. Their play is a good example. There play is different than regular play therapy because it is led by the therapist, and it focuses kind of on four dimensions. So there's structure, nurture, engagement challenge, and the therapist will lead the activities with the child with themselves in the or with the child and the parent and banking us. You know where which of those areas are the parents strength? Which of the areas are areas for improvement between the child and the parent, and then they can prescribe, Or they they set up the sessions Thio, you know, to work on those areas for improvement. So, for example, if a parent is really good at nurture and has a problem with with engaging with the child, then they might have some games set up where they worked on the engagement strategy.

spk_0:   32:28
Okay, So Thera play is one. And I would say that T b R I therapist that have gone through training trust based relational training TVR I training are also, I think, particularly well suited. Uh, and actually just any adoption competent therapist, I think can usually be working on these issues. Would you agree with that?

spk_1:   32:51
Yes, I think that any you know, of course, TVR. I trust guys. Relational intervention is a great framework for therapist, but it's not specifically an intervention. But I don't think any intervention that's really working on relationship skills and regulations, skill and creating creating a safe place for both appearance and the child, I think, is really important. It can help kind of recreate that that attachment cycle

spk_0:   33:21
we talk some about regressing, and you alluded to this at one point just just a bit ago. The need to meet the child and perhaps even regressive that you're able to progress the child's that you're able to meet some earlier needs of attachment is how does that work? Uh huh. And I mean, it's one thing if you're talking about, you know, one year old, it's another thing. If you're talking about a 10 year old. So how does this work?

spk_1:   33:50
So that's a really good question. I think one of the ways when you're connecting you have to figure out How do I connect with this child, whether they're 10 or two or, you know, six months? Um and so it's figuring out how Thio finds, like So let me just give an example. I'm sorry. I'm having trouble coming up with your

spk_0:   34:16
been there, done that. I understand. Yes,

spk_1:   34:18
Number 10 year old. They're probably not gonna get your lap and let you rock them and read a book to them, right? So other ways that you might connect within might be throwing the football. Um, it might be taking the dogs for a lot. It may be playing a board game, playing hide and seek doing an art project together, um, things that they're interested in. I know with my son, he loves for me. He's 14 but he loves for me to watch him play video game.

spk_0:   34:45
You

spk_1:   34:45
know, it's so it's it's finding things that they're interested in and doing that we have had some, you know, the Children that we've worked with, who will who are six or seven or eight or nine who do want to be brought to do, want to be held? Who do you want to kind of go back and get some of the things that they were missing? Especially if they have a younger sibling that comes into the family and they see that child start to get that that kind of care as a baby, You're a younger child, Um, and so I think it's just being open to kind of seeing where those needs are and figuring out ways Thio t connect in really meaningful ways and really being present thing is the key. We talk a lot about mindfulness, and I think it is apparent being attuned and being able to be really present. Um, it is really one of the most important things.

spk_0:   35:41
Listen, let me pause now to remind people that this show, as well as all the many resource, is that we provided. Creating a family could not happen without the generous support of our partners and these air agencies that believe in our mission of providing and supporting pre and post adoption in pre and post fostering all families. One such partner is Vince shape, then they are a license and accredited nonprofit organization in the New York City metro area it has been offering. Adoption service is for more than 100 years. They have a robust, and I do mean robust post adoption service provider they and they provide. The service is for birth parents, adoptive parents and adoptees. We also have hopscotch adoption there. A Hague accredited international adoption agency placing Children from Armenia, Bulgaria, Croatia, Georgia, IANA, Ghana, Morocco, Pakistan, Serbia, Ukraine. And they also specialize in the placement of kids with down syndrome and other special needs. And they also do kinship adoptions, international kinship, adoptions. So please keep these agencies in mind. They believe in education. They believe in support. Ah, and they put their money where their mouth is. So one of the things that ah ah, we we hear a lot is a confusion between. I think that a lot of people assume that attachment parenting means giving the child whatever they want. And there is a and there's that. They don't understand that discipline is also a part of this, and Dr Purpose and I have talked about this in the past. A number of times. And that attachment parenting doesn't is absolutely. It is possible to discipline while that the same time focusing on attachment. So how do people how to Paris? How do you recommend parents go about having having standards and having behavioral expectations at the same time that how is that not competitive with the idea of forming attachments?

spk_1:   37:47
Yeah, we get that question a lot with T. R I and one of the most common errors that we see when organizations or agencies start using TV or I is that a If they've been very high on structure previously that they kind of air going the opposite direction and become really high on nurture and kind of look, a structure go away and then they're like, Well, this doesn't work and

spk_0:   38:11
is so

spk_1:   38:12
keep your eye doesn't work and all the girls have gone out. And what about consequences and all of

spk_0:   38:17
these things? And I hear it all the time. Yes,

spk_1:   38:20
And so what attached, you know, being, you know, keep your eyes that we talk about the balance of nature and structure and bo are equally important. Doctor purpose used to say, If you give a child nurture When they need structure, you inhibit their ability to grow. And if you give a child structure when they need nurture, you inhibit their ability to trust. And that's one of the lines that always stayed with me because I think it's so important. We have tohave when we talk about parenting style. We talked about authoritative parenting, and that is what we're going for. We're going for that balance of no return structure where we have affectation. We, you know, we demand respect. We, you know, have the expectations for respectful behavior. But we also have the nurture

spk_0:   39:13
Uh huh. And the, um it Then I do think it is so important. And I think that it empowers parents because one of the things that they're hesitant about is, you know, opening up the gates and having, you know, Children have have no rules, no boundaries. And so they think that that they can't do attachment parenting because they are. They can't focus on attachment because, you know, I've got too many kids or, you know, this this child will just take over. Ah, yeah, and that's that's not part of it. Um, can you give us one or two techniques for a child. Let's say who is misbehaving has done something which you have asked them not to do. OK, let me give you an example. We're walking down the, um you've got before you've gone to the grocery store, you've said we're not going to be Ah, we're not gonna be getting toys, But you go near the toy, the toy aisle or whatever the cheap toys that they have. And the child starts pitching a fit because they want a toy. So can you give this mask? You have to do to do it spontaneously. But can you give us an example of how one could handle that situation where the child is? You're still expecting behavior, but But you're also not. You're also focusing on attachment,

spk_1:   40:25
right? I always It's hard to just give a straight answer because I want to say Okay, so we have We've been proactive. Have we set the child up for success before we went to the grocery?

spk_0:   40:35
No, that's a good point. Hey, you have

spk_1:   40:38
here the things that we're going to the store, help me come up with a list. What kind of cereal do you want? What do you want for breakfast? Well, what do you want in your lunch? And we've got to be proactive in setting up the transition to store. And then when we're at the story, then we might put the expectation really clear. Okay, when we get to the store, you are responsible for getting these things were not buying toys today, right? So we're setting the expectation really clear. And then when you get to the store and you're at the toys and they're like, I want this truck and you're like, remember what we talked about, we're not going to get that. Can you go get that? You know, the cinnamon toast crunch that you picked out? Let's go see if we can find that, you know, And it might work. It may not work. If it doesn't work, then you may have to, um, you know, step up the structure a little bit. And if you can't distract him with something else, you may have to offer choices or say you know, Ruby. Okay, well, we're not going to get a choice that would you like to go find the macaroni and cheese or the over next, um or you know, Do you want to ride in the cart, or would you like to hold my hand and walk next to me? We might have to up the structure a little bit by giving some choices. Um, yeah. Some of my worst parenting moment would happen to the grocery

spk_0:   41:53
store. You mind? Thio? Oh, mine too. Yeah, Yes, I'm a little

spk_1:   41:59
on everyone's watching.

spk_0:   42:01
Everyone's watching, and you're trying to be efficient. Do you want to get You don't want to abandon? Because in media have to come back to the store so that food and you're Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. And you're under I Yes, I think

spk_1:   42:15
I am. Proactive is one of the big things about to be. Your eye is really setting kids up for transitions and for success, and we will talk about the balance of structure and nurture. We also have to keep in mind raising and lowering the bar. And what our expectations at this moment so have Has the child had, you know Are they hungry? Did they sleep well last night? Have they had a big transition in their life? What's going on with them right now? So what? They're like daily history. And then what's their life history? You know, maybe the grocery stores that trigger for them. Maybe a certain food is the trigger for them or a person that they walk by in the store. So we have to raise and lower our expectations based on where they are.

spk_0:   43:03
Yeah, that's good advice we need to do also talk. We talk. We spend a lot of time talking about Children and their ability to attach to us. I feel like we spend far too little time talking about us and our pair as parents, our ability to attach to our Children. And, uh, I think it's changing, and we are speaking Maura about the importance of parental attachment. But one of one of its actually one of our, um it's been a It's one of our blog's that we did many, many, many years ago, and it still is one that we get probably one of the most hits and comments on it was a parent and make the title of something like I feel like a beast. But I don't love my adopted child or something along those lines, and it's it's a very poignant and this This is a parent to is not an evil person, but she is really struggling, Um, with feeling, feeling love is how she described it, but another way of feeling connected to her child. So let's talk some about parental attachment. Um e. I think it's self obvious, but but But I'll ask it, Why is it important for parents to also feel the ceilings towards their towards the feelings of bonding towards her child?

spk_1:   44:24
Yeah, it is. Is that so important? Attachment is a reciprocal relationship. And so when we're thinking about when when we're talking to parents about attachments, one of the things that we asked them to do is to think about what are they bringing to this interaction with their child? Are they bringing a calm presence? Are they bringing awareness of what we just talked about of the child history of their? You know, where they currently are? Are they able to respond flexibly, respond in a flexible way? Are they able to come up with a creative solution for R, they blocked by their own history? Are they blocked by their own trauma? Are they blocked because they have nothing left to give, write something here is so important as well, making sure that their tank in school, um, so that they can get that to their child. I think we talked about that, Um, a lot about what is the parent bringing to the relationship? When you think about attachment about 80% of the time, people will have the same attachment that their grand parents had. And so attachment is really robust and reliable, and it doesn't change, you know, easily. It doesn't change unless you have. I think they're called correct every trance, formal corrective emotional relationship. So if you have someone who comes in, who is that who provides that model for what a healthy relationship looks like or going the other way? If you have some sort of a trauma or lost or something that happened, that kind of major, your attachment in it in the opposite direction that you'd like,

spk_0:   46:18
you know another thing. That, and all those air, really very valid reasons are things that will interfere with the parent's ability to attach to their child. But you know, another one that I see a lot of is unrealistic expectations that parents come in without a firm understanding of how this child, how this child's behavior, maybe or or the stress of this child may bring into their life. And, ah, do you see that as well? It's the it just seems like one of the things that we could so actively do as people who care about kids and it's a profession is trying to make certain that adoptions and foster relationships are are successful is to help parents form realistic expectations before the child even interest her home.

spk_1:   47:05
Huh? I think that is really important that pre adoption support. What I've heard from many for many people who you were in that field is that they do that. But at the time, they're trying to give parents a realistic expectation of what's going on. But at the time, the parent isn't open for that information.

spk_0:   47:26
Ah, lot

spk_1:   47:26
of time because they don't think they'll need it.

spk_0:   47:28
Well, it's almost you go into this optimistically, you believe it's not going to happen to me, and and and we often Aceh educators will often roll our eyes at that. But the truth is, there's nothing wrong with being too approaching life in general and certainly ah parenting decision, the choice to to take a child on through fostering or adopt Jin with an optimistic attitude. And so it is a challenge to set realistic expectations because people don't think it's gonna happen to them,

spk_1:   47:58
right? I think that's where the post adoption support is so important

spk_0:   48:02
to you Exactly.

spk_1:   48:03
Then when the wheel do start to fall off, we can say, OK, this is gonna be the first time you've heard this. But maybe it's gonna be the first time that you're gonna listen and and take something. Take something with you. Always give this example to parents that when you're there's also always disorganization before organization.

spk_0:   48:21
So when you're

spk_1:   48:22
thinking about like in any system. So when a child starting tow walk they might have sleep disruptions or food disruptions because when one area grow, a development is kind of growing, some of the other one's kind of regressed, and I think of it like cleaning out your closet. So when you clean out your closet, you make this huge giant mess first before you reorganize it. And that's how families work.

spk_0:   48:46
Yeah, that's actually a good way. And, you know, one of the, um one of the reasons that we encourage families. All of the courses at creating all the online courses at creating a family are we want you to download than we want you to have them permanently because we strongly encourage people. And we actually know that people do this all the time that after they take the course, because it's a pre adoption requirement. But they come back to the course when they're okay. My child is is doing this or my child is hoarding food or whatever and let me go back and remember and and the field we call it EJ a Kable moment. The edge. A Kable moment is when you're looking at this child and you're wanting to wring their little necks and and and you're thinking, OK, wait, I know I am not there. No, there's a better way to respond. Ah, and that's when people are then reaching out in there. They're ready for information then. So you're exactly right. That's why post adoption is so important. So what are some things that you would recommend for a parent to do if they are struggling to attach to their child?

spk_1:   49:55
Um, one is to practice self care and make sure that they're not so spent that they don't have anything to give. Um, so whether that, you know, taking a few minutes to do something that they want to d'oh. Making sure that they're getting enough sleep that they're eating, you know, on regular times that they're managing their stress and healthy ways. Um, I think it's important that they have relationships with a partner or with a friend or family member where they feel safe. I think it's really important. Making sense of their past is another way to increase order. You know, build healthy attachments because once they are able to kind of know where they're coming from within the relationship, I think then they can. They can be more present within the relationship. I think parents can, you know, obviously seek help from mental health professionals or from you know, the organization from other from other places that are resource is that I think sometimes just cheering that they're not alone. So joining a support group that way those types of things can be helpful. Um,

spk_0:   51:17
I couldn't I all of those and feeling not alone is huge. Ah, so joining us in person or an online support group is is really amazingly helpful. It normalizes what you're going through. Uh, let me ask. One of the things that we often parents are told is that when they ah, child is new in their home, they really need to be the primary person taking care of the child. They need to have not leave the child. They need to be with that child as much as possible in order to create attachment. But some self care also requires you to have time with a friend of your partner. Ah, it requires, perhaps you too. If a self care a thing for you is going to yoga, it requires you to be able to, you know, get out two times a week to go to yoga. That type of thing. Can you talk about that balance? I think that parents have they hear what they feel like is that they're hearing mixed messages from professionals as two, and that that balance is very hard for them. The self care and the and the focusing on spending time with their child.

spk_1:   52:32
Yeah, that is it is very tricky. Um, we hear from parents about this all the time and I stink. The most important thing is that they're in a healthy place so they can help the child kind

spk_0:   52:51
of

spk_1:   52:51
build that road map for healthy relationships and for healthy regulation. And if they're not in a good place, always say that, like, I'm a really good parents, you know, when I've had, you know, I've had healthy meals when I've had enough sleep. When

spk_0:   53:07
my

spk_1:   53:07
stresses and out of control when I've been You know, I you know this decision, this

spk_0:   53:12
and

spk_1:   53:13
when do all of those things a line like 2% of my life, right now that I've been, I'm gonna try to find a pay. So what is the minimum number of sleep? I can get what I need to dio, and it's if we're gonna be the healthiest that we can be. We're gonna have to find a car about time and space in order to do that. I think one of the next summer's about attachment is that you have to meet every need every time

spk_0:   53:41
on, and

spk_1:   53:42
that's just that's impossible.

spk_0:   53:44
You

spk_1:   53:44
know, we have to be good enough parents we have to meet there needs on a consistent basis, but that doesn't need every single need. Every single time. Right and other people can meet their needs as well and show them what healthy relationships look like with other safe people. Um, and that's that's a transferable skill. So I think parents need Thio, uh, give themselves a break, really, and really work on on taking care of themselves. In the end, it helps them to be a better pick. Caregiver.

spk_0:   54:18
I couldn't agree with you more that we yes, we do want you to spend time with your child. And but you also need to spend time with yourself. And what if you're in if you're in a relationship with your your spouse or your partner, because that's important to Ah, and you just can't keep pouring and pouring and pouring all of yourself into others. Ah, that's number one. It's It's not feasible. It's number two. It's not sustainable. And you're also not setting a good example for your Children because that's not ah, that's not sustainable for them either. So all of those are important. Um, I do think it's important when we're talking about the parental attachment to at least touch on post adoption depression. Ah, and acknowledge that it Israel and it absolutely can. Impact will impacts every aspect of your life. But it's certainly including your attachment to your child and your general enjoyment of life and in general as well. Um, So what? What can parents first of all, how did they know they have what is posted option depression, and then what can they do?

spk_1:   55:31
I think I think it is common because our expectations on time don't most. I'm don't agree our reality of what

spk_0:   55:40
we've been

spk_1:   55:40
expecting in the desk to be, you know, oftentimes, people are going through adoption. It could have been even in the process for many years.

spk_0:   55:48
So

spk_1:   55:48
you had all of this time to build up the sex affectations in this life. But it's gonna look like and then when reality comes, it looks way different. And so your expectations and reality aren't matched. And so I think some of the signs for depression are They can show up in different ways and different people that it can be if you, you know, sadness, irritability, it could be withdrawing from people. Overeating, undereating, um, kind of not being excited about things that you used to be excited about? Um my advice on that would be one I think of support group could be really helpful because you're not gonna be the only you know, many, many, many families are going through the same the same killing. And then I think it'll help support through a counselor or therapist would also be I'm helpful.

spk_0:   56:39
Thank you so much. Dr. Casey. Call for being with us today to talk about attachment attachment 101 We really appreciate your time and your ah, and your expertise. Let me remind everyone that the information presented in this podcast they are the views of the guests do not necessarily reflect the position of creating a family. Are partners for our underwriters. Also, keep in mind that this information is general advice. To understand how it applies to your specific situation, you need to work with your adoption or foster care professional. Thank you, everyone. And we will see you next week.