The Chinese Medicine Approach to Infertility and Intimacy

How to use Chinese medicine to treat infertility? How to use it to support a Western medical approach to treating infertility (such as IVF and IUI). And how does infertility impact intimate relationships and what can Chinese medicine do to help maintain a healthy sex life during treatment. We talk with with Denise Wiesner, a Traditional Chinese Medicine specialist, and founder of the Natural Healing and Acupuncture Clinic and a professor in the doctoral program in Chinese Medicine, fertility, and women’s Health at Yo San University in LA. She is the author of the book , “Conceiving with Love: a Whole Body Approach to creating intimacy, reigniting passion, and increasing fertility.”

Transcript

spk_0:   0:07
Please forgive the errors.  This is an automatic transmission. 

spk_0:   0:07
Welcome to Creating a Family Talk about infertility. Hey, guys, do us a favor. Let your friends know about this podcast. Most people find out about specific podcast by talking to their friends. I know that's the case for me, because I had just recently found two new podcast by talking with friends so you could do us a huge favor and do your friends huge favor if they have any interest in the area of Infertility or fertility in general, please recommend Creating a Family and thank you. Today we're going to be talking about Chinese medicine and infertility and intimacy with Denise Wiesner. She is a traditional Chinese medicine specialist, a founder of the Natural Healing and Acupuncture Clinic and a professor in the doctoral program in Chinese Medicine, Fertility and Women's Health at Osaka University in Los Angeles. She is the author of the book Conceiving With Love. A whole body approach to creating intimacy, reigniting passion and increasing fertility. Welcome Denise to creating a family

spk_1:   1:08
really happy to be here. So how

spk_0:   1:11
does Eastern the eastern medicine approach to infertility or really fertility? How does that differ from the approach by western medicine?

spk_1:   1:21
When Western medicine looks at reproduction, they're looking a lot about the function of the hypothalamus and pituitary in the brain and how it's connecting to the ovaries and the uterus. So it's very specific, and it's trying to regulate hormones, and it looks a different conditions. Chinese medicine looks at the whole body as a functioning unit. So we look at things like, How is the digest digestion happening? How is the sleep? How are you? Um, are you exercising? What are you eating? Uh oh, like you know, how is your skin? What color is your skin? We look at details of a person's whole life, and also their emotional life is well, we incorporate that, too, and we look at the whole person. So Chinese medicine is a system, you know, 3000 years old, that incorporates all these into treatment plan.

spk_0:   2:15
Well, I can definitely understand how sleep and I can understand even how emotions can impact. But how? The things like Guy Gestion or, um or the color of your school of your of your skin or or things like that you're have is that impact Our tell. What? What type of information does that give you? That would be useful for helping someone who is not able to conceive

spk_1:   2:38
in terms of digestion functioning. You know, um, if there could be a lot of inflammation in the body and we can see that in digestion, for example, somebody could have, like, gas and bloating, and they're not processing their food. And if you're not processing your food, you are not getting all the vitamins and nutrients that your body needs, right, And you're also increasing the amount of inflammation. And if we really look at the reproductive organs, they're very close to the intestines. It's all one unit. So you know, having a healthy digestion will be part of how we how we utilize food, how we utilize energy, and it translates to the cellular level. So, for example, you know you have follicles that contains your eggs, right and all that. There's a follicular fluid that bays these eggs and what we take into our body, how we nourish our body actually nourishes your eggs. That's why digestion is so important.

spk_0:   3:35
Okay, so if I'm infertile and I come to a Chinese medicine doctor for treatment, what type of information is going to be important for you? Do I need to collect information beforehand. But what type of questions would you ask somebody to help you get a feeling of their, their whole body, their whole life? That would be important to you?

spk_1:   3:53
I'm one of the things that I really like to do with my people. My, my women, that are coming to me. Fertility is I like to do a very detailed look into their menstrual cycle. So where Western doctors really don't look at the menstrual cycle a menstrual cycle like the color of the blood if there's clots, if you get your period every 28 days or is it like, you know, 40 days that will give a significant amount of information to me about your overall health and the health of your fertility? So that's something different. And also get a cervical fluid as well. Do you have really good egg white cervical fluid, fertile mucus, You know, date 12 to 14. Or are you Do you have you? Do you have a lot of vaginal dryness? You know, I would look into those questions and I also would look into again your sleeve digestion, what you're eating. Um, well, you mentioned about the skin. But, you know, a lot of women have, like, a lot of acne, you know? And that could be hormonal about, especially in the chin area. So, you know, um, it could lead to this diagnosis. What? I might say, Like damp heat in a woman which is, you know, sort of like too much heat. Too much, maybe too much sugar intake, maybe too much dairy, maybe too much inflammation. And that comes out on the skin. So skin is wonderful to look cat for looking at a health of a body. So I look at all those kinds of things.

spk_0:   5:12
How does Chinese medicine view what we called polycystic in the Western medicine is called polycystic ovarian syndrome.

spk_1:   5:20
Chinese medicine looks at PCOS on looks, tries to break it down Two different kinds of patterns. So what we do in Chinese medicine is we We have all these symptoms into a pattern and there's different patterns with PCs. And you can see this on a patient like I happened of all these PCOs patients that are skinny and have no facial hair, Um and really dont have symptoms that we classically think of as PCOs. Like we think of PCOS is overweight, you know, maybe obese and hair that's not, you know, in the face and and and these women have nothing. But yet they have a lot of cysts on their ovaries, and they have maybe hi androgen levels, you know, like testosterone and androgen. And so Chinese medicine would would look a like, You know, does that patient run cold or hot? That would be a great That's a great asking, you know, someone who could be we say young deficient or doesn't have enough heat in their body. There's, like not enough fire. And so these this idea of like there's not enough fire is very simple, but to allow these these over Easter populate. So these these follicles just sit there and they like the way we call. There's like an element of dampness. They just sort of sit there, and they're like, thesis that that that shouldn't be there. So we might like use herbs and acupuncture to kind of create more fire in a woman on that will allow her toe opulent more if that makes any sense at all. Versus ah, maybe we say in deficient type, a different kind of type that might be your person who isn't overweight, who's thin. And we would do different types of herbs and treatment on that type of PCOS. So we really look at the individual, not just the condition, and see what's out of balance of what we need to do with herbs and acupuncture and diet toe. Help this woman.

spk_0:   7:04
So, uh, sometimes that is a duck that is PCOS can contribute to infertility, but another contribution. It could happen at women at any age, but it tends to happen with older women, and that is, goes by various names but diminished ovarian reserves, premature menopause, insufficient ovarian reserves, all of those our terms that are used. So um is one of Iram support, group Member says. Let's just call it what it is. Old eggs. And so the So How does Chinese medicine deal with diminished ovarian reserve, which can accompany age, But it can also happen with much younger women?

spk_1:   7:45
Oh yeah, I'm starting to see diminishing ovarian reserve in women that are in their thirties and twenties. It's really quite a so how first Well, you know, one of the things we look at diminishing ovarian reserve is how much you have left, but we're not really looking at the quality, right? So this idea that we don't have enough people get into panic and fear around that. And then that just creates more like less blood flow to the reproductive organs and more to the adrenal glands to deal with the fear response of Oh, no, I have diminished ovarian reserve.

spk_0:   8:13
It's a terrifying diagnosis. It really is.

spk_1:   8:15
It's terrifying for women. It's like, Oh my God, my time's running out. Hurry, hurry. And then I start getting on this train of I must do something now. But their body really isn't nourished. So I tend to really my personal, you know, believes that in Chinese medicine is really get a woman to really nourish her body. Really take the time to do, you know, work on stress. Were con energy work on nutrition, really getting her mind body spirit in a good place because, you know, only just it really takes one good egg. It doesn't take a baker's dozen, right? You know, it's it's it's about nourishing. Getting that good follicle that contains the egg and the fear response definitely is not helpful. So Chinese medicine uses things like electro stimulation to the ovary, which is electro acupuncture. It's little electrodes on needles that's basically stimulate the ovaries, which stimulates blood flow to the reproductive. It organs right. We want blood flow down there. We don't want the blood flow to be at the adrenal glands doing the I'm running from the bear. Oh, no, I'm in fear mode, so Chinese medicine helps to restore that.

spk_0:   9:21
So how do you get the electricity to the ovaries?

spk_1:   9:26
It's a little battery operated device called an electro stim machine, and they have little leads that you you attached to the needles that pulses the needles and that electro acupuncture it's called. So it just gives a constant little low, low level stimulation, not painful. It's not like having a, you know, hurt muscle. It's religious this like if I was gonna be for 20 to 30 minutes, gently manipulating your needle on your abdomen and in your legs. So it's just this gentle way of kind of promoting blood flow and nourishing the ovaries. That's

spk_0:   9:58
one thing. And so that And what type of herbs are the herbs as well? That could be

spk_1:   10:03
Yeah, I was just about to say, like, definitely, really great as herbal medicine and Chinese herbal medicine is so unique and that what we do is we write specific, horrible prescriptions that have, like a lot of different kinds of herbs in them, you know, as opposed to like, take this one, herb, that will help you. You know, you're diminishing ovarian reserve. We diagnose the patient to see, like what pattern this patient has. And then we write custom herbal formulas to to deal with that pattern on. And I have to say, one of the things I treat a lot in my practice, uh, with all my fertility patients is this I kind of want to say anxiety and fear. You know, this this like, you know, You know what I mean? Like that just people are really scared and have a lot of anxiety around whether they're going to have a baby or not, especially if they've been diagnosed with, you know, ovarian reserve issues. And so, you know, using that using herbs to help nourish and calm a woman and build her and like, nourish her ovaries and her whole body is very useful in herbal medicine or for a woman.

spk_0:   11:11
Yeah, I think anxiety and fear is almost universal, you know. And one of the hardest diagnoses is is unexplained infertility. It's terrifying because you don't have a cause. You don't have something that you can say. OK, I can. This is the reason why we're not getting pregnant. It's just unknown reason, you know, And that that makes it even harder.

spk_1:   11:31
Yeah, I think that with an angry current miscarriage two Really big one.

spk_0:   11:35
Yeah. Yeah, Well, I would certainly agree with that.

spk_1:   11:37
Yeah, like we don't know why you're miss caring, you know? Uh, yes, unexplained fertility. And and And I think it's important, You know, when I I deal with couples. So it's not just the woman. I mean, we put so much like, you know, energy on the woman, Thio like that exit, like, you know, I think I wrote in a in a in a instagram post, about, like, I really think every man should be taking a men's prenatal regardless of what their sperm is like. I mean, who couldn't use more antioxidants in this world that we live in. So I feel like, yes, the men need to be included in this cup full of making a baby.

spk_0:   12:12
Yeah, you know, it does take two to tango. Yeah, well, that brings up the okay. Let's let's talk about a male for stability. It was gonna come to it later, but this is a perfect segue way. So is acupuncture effective for male infertility? Nam, I'm speaking about a male who's been diagnosed with a sperm analysis that would indicate that there is some type of were followed your motility or some type of issue. So there is a diagnosis of male infertility is acupuncture. Can acupuncture be effective?

spk_1:   12:44
Yes. It's actually incredibly effective. I've seen I've worked with a lot of men. Some having, you know, the doctor was saying, you know, your sperm are so bad, we're gonna have to, you know, do a testy. We're gonna have to take him out a testicular extraction. And the men are like, Oh, no, I don't want that. But they came to me, and all of a sudden there's sperm improved with a combination of nutritionals, acupuncture, lifestyle and herbal medicine. The combination of those convey Really, I've seen just amazing results with Mitt men. You know, in some I've had men that have unexplained low sperm counts like the doctors don't know why they have hardly any sperm like No, it's not genetic ana that they that they know of at the moment. So I'm starting to see a lot more male infertility than just female infertility.

spk_0:   13:29
So what about if the male does? The couple has. Either The woman has a diagnosis of some form of female infertility, or they're unexplained, but they are not. Getting pregnant is Chinese medicine in general. And I'm glad you broke that down into China when we speak of Chinese medicine. This might have been something we should have hit. At the beginning. We were talking about lifestyle, nutrition, herbs and acupuncture. Is there anything else? I'm hitting the four high points,

spk_1:   13:59
I think. I think that's that's pretty good. Okay.

spk_0:   14:01
Yeah. All right. So what about if there if there isn't a diagnosis? The man's sperm analysis, the male partners firm analysis looks normal. Is there any reason for him to be going to see a Chinese medicine? Specialists to work on any of those four aspects?

spk_1:   14:18
You know, we don't see everything in a sperm sample. I mean, the truth of the matter is, Is you really gonna looking at sperm? You if they have good motility and also the age of the man, You know, You know, I've seen a lot of elder elderly men in my in my population these days, but that Yes, yeah, I think that there's that there's Chinese medicine has a role in helping both the men and the women get as healthy as possible. Even if a man's sperm is good, Maybe maybe his sperm is good, but he's a smoker, you know, even though it's sperm looks good. Maybe it's not as good as it could be because he smokes. And maybe getting him to stop smoking would be a really great thing, right? So I I think way have to look not just at sperm and eggs, but at the at the whole individual and and not on Lee in their sperm and eggs. But the whole individual and their relationship together. Yeah, so it's a bigger picture.

spk_0:   15:16
So we're talking about treating infertility, um, and well, before we do that, let me back up and say so. The we've talked about how Chinese medicine in general can be used for male I'm assuming that the same thing would be you would say the same thing if it is a female coming in that it's it's the whole body that you're looking at and Wood won't want to approach from a lifestyle, nutrition, herbs and acupuncture standpoint. Would that be the case regardless of what? Going?

spk_1:   15:46
Absolutely. I mean working with I work with women trying to get pregnant Natural A women who are doing IVF women who are doing egg freezing. I mean, it's Yeah, I I work with so many women and men in in all aspects of fertility. What Chinese medicine is a great asset, no matter what they're doing. Yeah, so increases blood flow increases. It just helps a woman. Well, that really helps support a woman and a man going through fertility where you know, they they don't get a lot of like. There's a lot of time Dr Spend with with women and men, you know, talking about emotions and how they how they're feeling. And I have a big box of tissues inside of in my room. Because a lot of women have is the only place where they can really talk honestly about how they feel and what's really going on.

spk_0:   16:29
Yeah, And you had your own fertility struggles. And so you have not only a professional understanding, you also have it from a personal standpoint.

spk_1:   16:39
Yeah, I d'oh, I I've I've definitely had miscarriages and I had to terminate and from genetic abnormalities, and I and I know what it's like to really have that longing, right? That deep longing toe have, ah, child where it's just not happening and and you don't really know why and and just everyone around you, it seems like it's getting pregnant and you don't you're not pregnant. And it's really hard

spk_0:   17:05
and overwhelming fear that it's never going to happen.

spk_1:   17:09
Yeah, yeah. And so I feel like in my practice, I do a lot of work around that for women about, you know, staying in the present, its ways to deal with living in the unknown exercises, you know, because on we need a help emotionally as well. It's not just a physical thing, right? Just sort of trusting and in our bodies and trusting in our journey. Talked a lot about that. The journey.

spk_0:   17:34
Yeah, and it is a journey. Um, So how can Chai a lot of people are also seeking Western. Now some some will seek only Eastern treatment Eastern Medical treatment. But a lot of a lot of people directly in our audience are also seeking Western. They're going to an infertility clinic and they, well, very well may be very well may be going through either, beginning with an I u I, um, and moving on to IVF. So how can Chinese medicine and be used, too? Not as an alternative necessarily to Western fertility treatment, but as a compliment. Thio Western Fertility Treatment

spk_1:   18:15
Yeah, I treat women and men. Ah, lot doing insemination Sze IVF. It's supportive. I have a woman usually come to me twice a week while she's doing stimulation drugs, and it helps us up the support again. The blood flow to the ovaries and helps a woman called You know, relax and helps her if she's having digestive issues, helps that I mean, people have all sorts of things going through this for two tickets. Dizzy, they have, you know, or congestion. So it's really supporting women in your whole body going through this process, and I've seen it, you know, it increases a quality. I've seen inequality get, you know, go up. I might. My preference is to treat a woman way before she doesn't IVF, like, at least about, you know, 90 days to help get her prepared to do an IVF possible. Sometimes it doesn't work that way. But I think you know the idea of just coming in and having me come to your IVF transfer. I think it's better for women to get ongoing treatment than just me. Show up for this one time in an IVF transfer to really help the whole, the whole journey.

spk_0:   19:14
So do you actually go to the when she is having her transfer?

spk_1:   19:19
I d'oh, I want many, many clinics

spk_0:   19:23
and And why? What what are you doing during the transfer? And that is just so people understand. Yeah, transfers after an embryo has been created and isn't big transferred back into this is not a retrieval. This is that have already been

spk_1:   19:36
Yes. I mean, there was ah ah, way back when there was a German study that showed that, you know, acupuncture increased, uh, chances of implantation. There's been a lot of of studies since then. Some saying yes, I'm saying no, but uh, for the most part, I have very good results just showing up. And it's really supportive and calming. Also, because I have known this woman I've worked with her and me being there just helps, you know, reassured. It helps keep her column during the process.

spk_0:   20:03
And have you found that in fertility clinics are amenable, Are accepting are encouraging of your presence.

spk_1:   20:11
Yeah. I mean, I've had I I I definitely had people. I'm in l A. But everybody seems to be very, very, very happy for me to be there. I'm not 100% necessary. Sometimes I see a woman doing IVF transfer also the day before her transfer to get her prepare because the effects of acupuncture will carry over to the day after.

spk_0:   20:33
So, you know, it always seems to me when I when I read about Chinese medicine, it's all about balance. Balance within the body balance between the different aspects of your body, the ying and the yang and your remote cushions. And it's all about balance and IVF. They're taking really, um, strong medications that what, while certainly effective, are they certainly can be effective. They really do throw your body off balance. So is that a problem for Chinese medicine? Working with a woman going through taking the strong um, Gonadotropin Tze and other medications that will hopefully help her get pregnant through IVF,

spk_1:   21:15
I feel like as a practitioner, my job is to help assist a woman no matter where she is, that if she's doing, you know, a strong IVF meds. My, my my help is to help her work with them and then my help is to help her recover afterwards. So usually on IVF these days, people are doing freeze. All they freeze the embryos instead of doing fresh transfers is that it is now what's happening. And so I get to work with a woman after she's done harvesting her eggs and and they make embryos to detoxify her body from all these high levels of estrogen that are circulating because of the stimulation drugs and that I feel is very, very important. And where were, you know, to help women with nutrition and eating and herbs on acupuncture to get rid of the estrogen so it doesn't get stored

spk_0:   22:03
and prepare her body for a transfer after having been stimulated for egg retrieval? Yeah, Absolutely. Yeah. You know, um, I want to talk a little about the safety of Chinese herbs to be taken when you're going through IVF it. But let me profit assist by saying that I think anyone who is going through IVF should be talking with their doctor, their western doctor while their eastern and western doctor about two before they take herbs. Because I know that there is some differences of opinion. So you do want your, um, your doctor, your reproductive endocrinologist to know what you're taking. But in general, what do you What is the research showing us far as Chinese herbs and whether or not they are complementary to the other medication Ginger taking for IVF. Are there some magician avoid?

spk_1:   22:56
That's a very good question. You know, there's not a lot of research on Chinese herbs in the IVF process and how they interact with the Western drugs. So because there's not a lot of research Western doctors don't usually use, don't usually is the is the is really the truth. Want their patients to be on Chinese herbal medicine at the same time they're going through IVF. My rule of thumb is I usually don't put people on herbs when they're starting the stimulation drugs unless they failed many cycles when they failed many cycles. At this point, I feel like, you know, they feel let's try something different and usually the the empties are okay with that. But I also tell patients to check with their physician. I want to do some of my colleagues don't believe this, but I like to just work with the physician because I want us to be a team. I feel like having this everybody playing on the same team is very beneficial. Yeah, right. I mean, I don't want to go against If the doctor says no herbs, I I want I want to honor that. That's how I practice. So hopefully they've done herbs and really built himself up before they do the stimulation. Drugs? Yeah.

spk_0:   24:01
Okay. You know, let me break this for a moment and remind everyone that this show could not end. Quite frankly, would not happen without the generous support of our partners who believe in our mission providing medically accurate, unbiased information along the continuum of struggles that you have to conceive. One such partner is Cooper Surgical. They are Cooper, Surgical Fertility, Genomic Solutions and their global leaders, IVF and Reproductive Genetics. They offer a whole array of of genetic testing and individual activity reset activity testing for individuals and couples who are trying to get pregnant. They're also proud, and I think this is extremely important to provide comprehensive genetic counseling to their patients. Another partner of ours is Christ International Sperm and egg there, dedicated to providing a wide selection of high quality, extensively screened frozen donor sperm and eggs. And they have all races, ethnicities and senior types, and they can also provide you sperm for both home insemination as well as for fertility treatments. They are the world's largest roommate and first freestanding independence, Fernbank in the United States. That's Christ International sperm, one of the in fact, this is actually really what you're the I think this is kind of I think it's fair to say that this would be really with the heart of your book, conceiving with love, a whole body approach to creating intimacy, reigniting pet auction and increasing fertility. That's the title of the book and the topic. The the Just of the book is how to maintain and create intimacy in general. But but the part I particularly appreciated was talking about doing that while going through infertility struggles. And I was so happy to see someone addressing this and cannot recommend. Recommend the book enough. Um, and this is by our our guest, Denise Wisner. She's a Chinese medicine specialist and the founder of the Natural Healing and Acupuncture Center in L. A. And I, uh, the book truly address is a topic that we do not talk about enough. And while it's not universal, it sure feels like it when you get women together. Who we have a huge online support group here creating a family when you get women together and and they start sharing some of the really more painful aspects of infertility in addition to struggling and really wanting your child, he just plays havoc on your love life. Is that would you agree that it's almost universal?

spk_1:   26:39
I think it's totally universal, and I think that the reason I wrote this book is because I felt this huge need to talk about it to starting

spk_0:   26:48
the child. Don't talk about it exactly. Yeah,

spk_1:   26:51
yeah, yeah, there's there's there's so much shame around sexuality in general, you know, there's I've uncovered where patients, when it really boils down to it, they're doing IVF because they don't have intercourse or theirs. It's painful or there's issues with ejaculation ejaculating in in the in in the vagina. There's so many issues and people have nowhere to talk about these issues. And it is to me it's a shame.

spk_0:   27:22
Yeah, and there's it wasn't talking about sex in general. It's not easy. And I think that talking about a lack of intimacy is even harder in some ways. You know what you're not even enjoy Because, I mean, you look at the news and you look at not knew so much about you. Look at media and it's all about you know, everybody. You know. It's all about sex and about how wonderful this for everybody. And when it isn't wonderful for you are. And maybe it had been in the past, but it's not wonderful now, you know, because all you're thinking about is all right, a modulating Let's just do it. Um, you know, there's a lot of shame. There's a lot of feeling like the whole world ascent is enjoying something that you're not enjoying of being left out. All of those feelings people have.

spk_1:   28:05
Absolutely. It's definitely true. So what are

spk_0:   28:08
some of the typical issues with intimacy that you see when you're dealing with couples who are struck? Going with infertility?

spk_1:   28:15
Um, hi. It's very interesting cause I get both men and women to come in. So, like the you know, a lot of it is that that that man feel very helpless toe to do anything. Sex has become. Really, they're not having sex enough. It's usually only when there are ovulating, and, uh, and men are having issues performing. I see this quite, you know, that was life. It's only sex on demand once a month. It's not happening, and I see that nobody is enjoying it. It's like a deed. It's a chore. And and for the most part, like what? The whole idea of making a baby is this love between two people. I mean, it's just the most magical, amazing thing, and it's amazing, even if you're doing an IVF. So uh, you know, right, because it's it's still whether it's an infusion, ensure, you know, had so still a miracle, isn't it? So I think people don't know how to navigate. And I've I've noticed that one of the issues, too, is during the IVF procedure or insemination procedure that doctors really don't give you very adequate guidelines. When it comes to, I'm gonna say sex and and intimacy and fertility because, you know, it's sort of like just general, like don't have intercourse, but sex is so much more. I mean, it's not just intercourse, it's it's love. It's connection. It's it's, um it's There's other pleasuring ways, right? It's using your fingers and using your mouth. And, um, it's so much more than just Penis in vagina. So but nobody's addressing like what you can do. So I wrote a whole chapter, her book on timing and like when you can do what? Because it's I just found that it wasn't, you know, the instructions were so, um, small in reproductive centers, because again, nobody's talking about it on my patients all have these questions like and some little more like, Wow, I'm super horny. I have all the cervical mucus and I won't have sex, can I? You know, those type of things and, you know, they were embarrassed to say that it's not just not having enough sex. It's also not knowing when to have sex. So I think there's a There's a lot of issues and I think pain and I think foreplay, you know, cut women. You know, one of the things is that a lot of men don't know that it takes about 20 to 45 minutes for a woman to be fully aroused. And I think when you're training it, it's like, Let's get busy, let's put it in And it's like unpleasant women are having pain. They're not lubricating, but it's because it's it's they're losing the foreplay. They're losing the connection there. They're just not even spending time with their partners to begin with, you know? So I the book really had speaks a lot on this topic.

spk_0:   30:52
It's almost a Ziff. If your only focus and lovemaking is to make a baby, you lose sight of all the other things that could be a part of it that that are enjoyable, and and then when you lose sight of those, then you it's almost like you're pulling away from your partner rather than moving towards them.

spk_1:   31:10
Yeah, I mean, interesting enough on because I see people like, you know, maybe 10 years post. I see I've been practiced for 25 years, so I'll see people that have, like, done IVF. And on day start no. Now they're divorced. I just saw Ah, person. That was very sad. But when it really comes down to what she was telling me is, even before they were doing IVF, they were having huge issues with intimacy and connection. And these issues don't just go away because we have a baby, right? They actually need to be addressed even before you're trying to conceive.

spk_0:   31:45
Yeah. No. Well, that's true. That's in general. You're right. But I do think that the infertility treatment itself as well as infertility So it's both the treatment as well as the disease can impact into intimacy, even even if you have not had problems.

spk_1:   32:00
Correct? Absolutely. No question.

spk_0:   32:03
Yeah. So what can couples do to maintain the joy of sex when what they really want is a baby? You know, at this point, I can I can give up an orgasm. I just want a baby, that type of that feeling that they have.

spk_1:   32:15
Right? Right. Uh, I think that one of the things is Thio cultivate time together. Think that doesn't happen a lot, I think, where couples are very busy, right? Busy life. I'm busy too. And so there's not a lot of time designated for, um, just in general, connecting and having more intimacy. This doesn't necessarily mean in the bedroom. This could be in, like doing more things together, cooking together, massaging each other, right, doing just doing things together. Whether it's I connection where you're seeing your partner. Sometimes I'll have couples do things like eye gazing where they just look into each other's eyes for four minutes, you know, because people are so like we're so focused on screens and technology that we we don't spend a lot of time actually looking at our partner so simple things like that. Just getting a ah yes, the simple things that we forget. So I was spending more time love making more often, not just in the ovulation window, getting into a regular routine with it. So it's not a weird thing all of a sudden when ah, woman's putting on the lingerie and the guy's like, Oh, no, it's her ovulation window fresher here, right? It's It's there's there's actually lovemaking increases blood flow to the reproductive organs rights, not just acupuncture lovemaking. So we need more of it.

spk_0:   33:35
Yeah, throughout the throughout the month. And not just and, actually, you know, from, you know, from a male fertility standpoint, um, having a regular ejaculation sze is not a bad thing. We sometimes think that it needs to all be saved up further for the ovulation window. But in fact, men are able to continue to produce and actually do better if they have had regular ejaculation. Sze Yeah, Speaking of the male part, a very little discussed but very common issue is erectile dysfunction for men going through infertility men who did not mean there. People can have that regardless, um of whether or not they're infertile. But I'm talking about erectile dysfunction that is caused honestly due to the pressure of Okay, it's the woman is getting ready to copulate. Get it up, buddy. We got to do it, you know, because this is important, right? Populating now and that's you talk about talk about you know, intimacy can talk about a mood killer number one, but also the pressure. But on the other hand, from a woman's standpoint, when we talked with women, they'll say, Yeah, I'm sorry. They're splitting pressure. But on the other hand, there is pressure. So So get it up, guy. You know that type of thing. So, what can you What do you do for couples are for guys, but it really is a couples issue when that's problem. I

spk_1:   34:56
think one of the first things is communication about how we wanna handle going through fertility rite to actually talk about, you know? Hey, honey, do you want to know when I'm ovulating? Hey, honey, do you should we do you figure out when I'm appealing? Some men, like, wanna keep track of their their their woman's opulent a shin right? And just the communication how we want to deal with this Because someone don't really want to know it all on the women has to just really, like, have regular sex and just get busy. But of course it is that pressure right where you're like, I hope it happens tonight. So if you're having it more regularly, um, and you're carving out and you're making it special. It might not be so difficult for a man to to feel like, you know, And if it doesn't to perform, and if it doesn't happen the night, maybe the next day, the next morning, right? There's a window. It's not just one time, right? So it's It's allowing a couple to figure out how they want to navigate this this very intimate dance.

spk_0:   35:55
You know, it's not talking about how he wants to go through fertility treatment, and how do we go through it in a way that preserves our our relationship each of our dignities. All of those are important to talk about before before you even start your first cycle.

spk_1:   36:15
Yeah, And then, you know, I I've actually had I've had women come in my office and just say, You know what? It's so much work to get him to get an erection. You know, this is the stuff they never talked with. No one talks about. You know, finally, I'm exhausted. I'm like, working so hard, you know? And, you know, I've had men who you know, where they needed, Like it got into a bad pattern with erectile dysfunction in secondary erectile dysfunction. You know, because of fertility that I've actually haven't get go to a doctor and get like a Viagra or a little help to get to break the cycle of like this was once a man has it that he might get an erection, He's in his head and he's now worried about getting an erection. And then this thing, this was like a bad cycle, you know? Right, So it's like sometimes I'll just have them do that. Have some, like go away for the weekend, have some fun, and that breaks the cycle. So sometimes Western medicine can be very helpful in helping men to break erectile dysfunction. How

spk_0:   37:11
important do you think it is to take a break from treatment? That's a fine line, because for depending on the age of the woman and we, the reality is time does count in Time is not on our side with fertility, and it's hard to take off even a month. But let's say you want to take off a couple of months. Um, what

spk_1:   37:33
do you

spk_0:   37:33
recommend? Is that an important thing to consider, and if so, when is it important to consider?

spk_1:   37:38
I think it's important to to take off time to really you know, for many reasons, sometimes it's just too really nourish your body. If you've done an ivy after an egg retrieval and you're exhausted, I mean this I just had a couple who the woman was really in a rush. And she's older to have a baby And, you know, and I have felt her pulse is, you know, because in Chinese medicine we feel pulses to find out the energy of the body, and they were just very weak and efficient. And I was like, Yeah, you know, I never usually say this, but I was like, You know, you need to take some time and just nourish yourself, nourished the relationship. And she was like, You know, she didn't want to at all. But of course she went to the IVF doctor. He didn't ultrasound. And, you know, as it turns out, she only had, like, one control follicle, which means she didn't have a lot of reserve and and he was like, Yeah, you need to wait. And it just confirmed what I told her. So sometimes the body will tell the body mind Spirit will tell us like women really know they need a break, but they just don't honor it. half the time, so I think it's important to I think it's important to take a break. I don't think usually in a month that your eggs get really like they shrivel up and die. You know, it's this idea of, like, Well, if I take two months off, it's like too much older. Oh, no. But sometimes I've had it where a woman in her forties doesn't get pregnant by that 42 they get pregnant, right? It's It's all about sort of nourishing and and and and bring good energy to our reproductive organs. Sometimes a break is needed, and and sometimes a break is needed in the relationship, too.

spk_0:   39:06
And that's yeah, some two to reignite the spark. Remember why intimacy is important, too? Yeah,

spk_1:   39:14
just just tea, You know, sometimes look of couples exercise like Don't try to make a baby take this month off in trying, quote unquote and just pleasure. Each other connect without this goal in mind. And it's funny. Sometimes that's when they get pregnant. When they've leko this like job, they have to D'oh!

spk_0:   39:33
Yeah, I have heard women say that they have. They start using birth control just so that they can really stop the pressure because they weren't able to stop the pressure If they had, they were. If they if there was a possibility that they could get pregnant, that's what they were thinking about and that using birth control allowed them to to focus more on the on, falling back in love and falling back an intimate relationship with their partner. Um, that's a harder thing to do when, uh, that when you're how you really, really, really wanna baby s o. Yeah, a lot of ah, that takes a lot of commitment.

spk_1:   40:14
Yeah. I mean, I think I think those brakes where the doctors are like, you know, we can't do anything. Now you have to sort of take a break. It's so human, are usually super relieved, and so are their partners, cause it doesn't have for this opportunity to, like, get back into, you know, because they if you're doing treatment for IVF for insemination or whatever it is, you're so far out of your body. People don't feel good in their body, right? They feel bloated and then sexy. And you know all those things are going on during and an IVF cycle And so just the idea of sort of getting back into your body and feeling pleasure and connecting with your person months off could be fabulous.

spk_0:   40:49
Yeah, it absolutely can be in. And I think, especially if you think that if you can identify that, that that there is no more intimacy in your lovemaking, that that's a time to consider it for sure. Absolutely. So before we talk about some kind of a summary of all of this, let's talk about orgasm for women. How important is orgasm for women? How off What percentage of women routinely orgasm? How important is it? How important is it for intimacy, reigniting passion and all that?

spk_1:   41:25
The funny thing about orgasm is it the first verse? A lot. It's not necessary to orgasm to make a baby. Otherwise, well, you know, in an insemination wouldn't work right. But there is a theory in this up suck theory that the idea is when you get if you do have an orgasm and the and the sperm are like really near the cervix, that the contractions kind of suck up the sperm into the uterus. Yes, So there is a theory that if you have orgasm. It's it's very good for fertility, but that's a theory on DSO. You know,

spk_0:   41:54
it's also a theory that puts pressure on women who don't

spk_1:   41:56
Absolutely no, you don't need to orgasm. And this idea of was pressure to orgasm. And I just had a woman who faked her orgasm with her partner. And I finally have said to her, You know, you might not want to do that because he's thinking you're getting there and you're not. It's like it's just like, you know, honesty is such a good thing among couples. But this idea of you have to have an orgasm that all you're thinking about is like I must orgasm. What is an orgasm, anyway? You're again in your head about about sexuality and not in the physical pleasure. Orgasm comes from a release. It's a letting go. It's not like it's like the same thing is on a destiny. A lot of goal a man kind of needs to, but for a woman, it's it's not. It's like being in the moment with our sexuality is so much more important than whether we orgasm or not. And sometimes you know this elusive orgasm as they say is a woman's having him and doesn't even know she's having them because they think it should be this explosive. You know, you're to the moon and back and on Dhe. Sometimes it's also about technique, You know that we think we can't orgasm, but given a different technique, maybe we can. And I just had a woman who came to New said. I didn't know I was multi orgasmic. She's with a new partner and she found out she was even at turning 49 again. Sometimes we don't know enough about our own bodies and self pleasuring to know what brings us to orgasm.

spk_0:   43:20
So if you had one or not, just one piece of advice but general advice to give to people on maintaining an intimate relationship and loving relationship with your partner. When you're going through infertility, what would it be?

spk_1:   43:38
I think the biggest piece for me is about love. I think that's why I put conceiving with love is to connect with our heart energy the biggest because our heart energy connects with our loins with our reproductive energy. It's not just like what's going on down there, but it's really what's going on in our in our love for this person. You know, being in gratitude and looking at them and seeing them and feeling love. You know, in Chinese medicine, the heart opens to the tongues of passionate kisses. Connects to the love energy next to the heart. So it's it's it's connecting into the energy of our heart to remember why we're making a baby in the first place.

spk_0:   44:12
Yeah, after say that two people remember why you wanted two to make a baby. Why do you want to live your life? And that's why you choose this person to be the the parent, the co parent with you for this child, fullback and love. And it's quite frankly, also important once you succeed and they're having a child. Absolutely. Remember why you Yeah, love? Well, that's a wonderful on that wonderful note. Thank you so much. Denise Wisner, the author of Conceiving With Love. A Whole Body Approach to creating Intimacy, reigniting passion and increasing fertility. She is the founder of the Natural Healing and Acupuncture Clinic and Los Angeles, and just this reminder for everyone. The views expressed in this show are those of the guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of creating a family, our partners or underwriters. And keep in mind that the information given in this interview is general advice. To understand how it applies to your specific situation, you need to work with your infertility professional to get more information about Denise. You could go to her Web site Natural Healing acupuncture dot com. There is information there specific to infertility and Denise. Where would you send people to the copy of the book? I mean obviously Amazon. And obviously you're independent booksellers. Please let us support those. Yes, but is there a place online outside of Amazon that you would like people to

spk_1:   45:39
go? I think there's there's, there's some connections. If you go to my website, my my personal website, my author website Denise Wisner dot com. I think there's there's links to where you can also get audio links if you want to hear it instead of read it so more, more, more there. Yeah,

spk_0:   45:55
okay. And of course, Astra Library to buy a copy so absolutely could be there as well. Um, thank you so much. I truly appreciate having you wanted. Oh, thank you so much. It's been an honor