Living with Infertility

Living with infertility is hard physically, emotionally, spiritually and financially. We talk about this experience with Andrea Syrtash. She struggled with infertility for over 10 years and recently became a mom through surrogacy. She is a relationship expert and coach and TV personality and the founder of Pregnantish, an online lifestyle magazine dedicated to helping singles, couples and LGBT navigate infertility.

Transcript

spk_0:   0:02
Welcome to Creating a Family Talk about Infertility. Do us a favor, Please let your friends know about this podcast. Most people find out about podcasting from their friends. So be a friend, both to your friends and to us, and we really would appreciate it. Today, we're gonna be talking about living with infertility with Andrea Syrtach. She struggled with infertility since 2012 and recently became a mom through surrogacy. She is a relationship expert in Cochin, a TV personality, and she is the author of He's Just Not Your Type and That's a Good Thing and cheat on your husband with your husband. Through her infertility struggles, she realized the need for information and support for the infertility struggles. And she founded pregnant Tish. It is an online lifestyle magazine dedicated to helping singles couples and the LGBT Q Community navigate the whole infertility journey. Welcome Andrea to creating a family. I'm so looking forward to hearing about your journey.

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* Note that this is an automatic transcription, please forgive the errors.

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spk_1:   1:04
Thank you for having me. It's great to be on

spk_0:   1:07
excellent. They've been, by the way, congratulations. I know you are a relatively new mom. How

spk_1:   1:13
old? She's 10 months, but I joke that she's also three years old because we created the embryo before we worked with my cousin, who's a gestational carrier. We created the embryo in 2016. So I say she's 10 months and also three years old. Look at it.

spk_0:   1:32
Okay, but three rows convey a little bossy. So let me ask you, what is a personality? You should act like a three year old Iraq like a timid

spk_1:   1:38
Well, I call her a 10 ager, actually, because I learned how to say no already has a baby. So she is a little bit of attitude without But she's generally the happiest baby. She makes me the happiest person, so I can't complain.

spk_0:   1:54
Wonderful. All right, so let's start by talking. You've alluded. Thio, How was your journey? I will say in because we're gonna talk about that later on in the interview. But let's start at the beginning. You ah first started trying in 2012. If I understand it

spk_1:   2:10
well ish, I mean, I actually we started trying a year or two before that. That's, you know, on her own. When I married my husband, I told him it may take us a couple of years to have a baby because I had remembered when I was 14. An o b g y n told May I had probably had in Dimitrios. This put me on the birth control pill and said, You may have fertility issues later. And that was when I was 14. The last thing on my mind was pregnant. Exactly. I wasn't sexually active. It was very, you know, I was a kid. I wasn't thinking of having a kid, so I just kind of put it out of my mind. And then when I got married, I told my husband may take us a couple years. So we first went Thio Reproductive Endocrinologist, the specialist in 2012. But we had tried before then.

spk_0:   3:00
Okay, you know what? Honestly, I begin the journey. When I think of it, we knew first actively trying. Because I know most people try for well, I mean, s r m, the American Society for Reproductive Medicine recommends that if you're under 35 you try for a year. And when we use the word try, Really, that means with timed intercourse. So that's knowing your ovulation. So, you know, a lot of people just stop using birth control and are not really timing and not really checking. They're just kind of enjoying the process. And But I I really start the timeline in my mind when you're tracking your ovulation and actively making sure you have sex during that

spk_1:   3:40
time. I agree, Yeah, that that's actively trying. And I don't think we were that even in the first year. So maybe we started even three years before that, because we were what I call trying not trying. If it happens, great, we're young. We're you know, it was you know, what's what's interesting is I thought it would take us a couple of years, so I wasn't putting any pressure on us. It was like, We'll see. You know, we'll see when it happens. You start getting worried when you're trying not trying or not. Oh, and when you're tracking a regulation like you said, yeah, after I'd say way before a year hits, you know, after like six months, you start to wonder what's up as it can start to, Were you that you thought it would happen faster or easier?

spk_0:   4:27
Exactly. When you start, you know the way the process often goes is you think Okay, we'll just ditch the birth control. We'll just see what happens. But after a couple of months, you start going. Maybe I should read up on cervical mucus or and that's even if you don't want to actively start buying. The ovulation kits are taking your basil basal body temperature. But a lot of times you just are starting to notice and make sure that you're, you know, getting together on those times. And so that's and then you go, that doesn't work. And you think, OK, I need to actively start timing it. But that's the point where every month you're disappointed, you know, before then you can kind of say, Well, you know, you know, we're still just kind of trying not trying.

spk_1:   5:07
Yes, exactly. And I think the average person, I mean, I'm I'm always into. I'm a journalist. I interview a lot of people, and I've learned that a lot of people don't even realize that there's about a 48 hour window during which time you can get pregnant populations. So there's a lot of also, I think, miss understanding before you were actively trying to conceive that you don't even understand what it takes to try to create a baby?

spk_0:   5:36
No. You've been focused on not creating a baby. That's mean. And in our minds. And quite frankly, what our parents and our teachers and others have told us is that you know, you look at a boy wrong. You know you're going to get pregnant, so keep your knees together or whatever. Our parents and your parents weren't quite that British.

spk_1:   5:54
Yeah, but we had a lot of warnings. That's

spk_0:   5:56
what we did. And so I mean, I certainly know that I thought that I could get pregnant really easy and because that's, you know, I was actively not wanting that. So anyway, yeah, so 2012 that uses you see a reproductive endocrinologist. Where did you ever get a diagnosis? Was it in? Dimitrios

spk_1:   6:15
is well, so I think. Actually, I first taught, saw the Obi and talked about my fertility kind of more deeply in 2011 and then eventually made my way to an Ari's office. And during the first you know what they do when you go to a specialist? A reproductive specialist is they do an ultrasound and some blood work, and that's when the Ari said to me. Wow. You have a massive fibroid tumor recovery or tubes and ovaries. There's no physical way you could get pregnant with this, so of course you're not getting pregnant. So Endo was on my brain, but it was, in fact, fibroid tumors preventing pregnancy. From her perspective, though, the next step there was Oh, well, that's why we're not getting pregnant. So let's remove this tumor. It was so large. One of the cruelest parts I think of the fiber raid tumor diagnosis is that they measure it in terms of pregnancy. So they say to you, You're you're measuring 14 weeks pregnant with this fibroid. I think it's really cruel. What you Tonto infertility to be told that

spk_0:   7:21
they also measured by fruit sizes or vegetable side.

spk_1:   7:24
And I prefer at least

spk_0:   7:26
Oh, yeah, See, I don't like

spk_1:   7:27
that. Well, all of its sucks. Let's be

spk_0:   7:29
honest. I don't want to think of you can't just, you know, I just want

spk_1:   7:34
to buy. He did say something that was really, really insensitive, and I won't name names here of who said this to me. But she said, It's It's like two babies heads air in you. How could you not know that this was in use, So she three things happened there. I had shame from the doctor for not going in my body. I also had this image of babies in my body when I was heartbroken that at that point few years in that I wasn't pregnant. And it was scary to think about how large this mass was in my body. And she said, You know, your next step is to have fibroid removal surgery and it's gonna be open stomach myomectomy. It's gonna be It's really large. It's so large that they have to open you. They have to get in through surgery. And here's the good news. The good news is it's probably been growing for years, so there's no rush so great, but it will growing. Okay, so I was hosting a TV show at the time. As you said in the intro, I'm a TV personality and I was hosting a show actually back in Toronto, where I'm originally from. I live in New York, but I was hosting this show for the Oprah Winfrey Network, and I was really busy, and I said, Okay, you know, when we wrapped production I'm gonna have the surgery, and I'll be admitted. I I heard. And it was true for a number of days in the hospital.

spk_0:   8:51
Yeah. Opens open abdominal surgeries.

spk_1:   8:54
Yeah, Oleg. Yeah, pretty big. And we prepared for it. And And we did it in the summer of 2012. And I remember clearly my o. B. Saying, you know, you're going to need a few months before you start trying again. So everything in my mind was plans that we'd start trying formally trying again, maybe in early winter, because that the surgery was in the summer, the production had wrapped and it just felt like, Okay, 2013 is our year to be pregnant, and that's when it's gonna happen, because this is out of out of me. But that's not what happened. We'll talk about that.

spk_0:   9:29
Okay, So you had the surgery. They removed the fibroids? Yes, our fibroid. I guess you probably more than one. And they s o U on dso Was there scoring because that's one.

spk_1:   9:42
There was a little scurrying they told. They told me that would probably happen, and my tube wasn't completely blocked, but there was some scarring and my reproductive endocrinologist and my obese suggested we you know, we try I u I but that the tube was war less open, and we still had one good tube in which to try. Are you I And

spk_0:   10:02
Okay, so you're next approach was and I interviewed her. And dissemination. Yes.

spk_1:   10:07
My 1st 1 was in early 2013. I think the 1st 1 didn't work. I think the 2nd 1 didn't work, but they were really encouraged by my hormone levels. And so the 3rd 1 worked and I got pregnant, and we thought, Okay, this is this is what we need it. So we're pregnant and we lost that pregnancy. I believe we were in about nine or 10 weeks. We had seen a heartbeat, but I'm still first trimester, but absolutely devastated when I lost that pregnancy in November 2013 and that sent me back for a number of months. But because I you I had worked, I was encouraged, and our insurance covered II and everybody who's done through infertility or fertility treatments understands this part of the story. As a patient, you do fertility treatments that are kind of within reach. We had under my husband who's a teacher under his insurance plan. We had kind of unlimited idea wise. So I did unlimited. I you wise, I felt like it got me pregnant. I was encouraged. But in 2014 Theory said to me, I think it's time to move to I. V s. And I was sick of value wise. It just was training. And I thought, You know what? Now it's gonna work. So we did our first time IVF in the summer of 2014.

spk_0:   11:24
Let me stop. You hear an ass? All right. What? How old? We We all know that age is, uh is one of the predominant factors when we talk about infertility. So just roughly what age world around?

spk_1:   11:37
I don't even know, to be honest, I mean, we got married, and I actually don't talk about my age a lot, just in general, because I think it distracts age is an issue. Mine was not an age issue. We started trying when I was 30 31 years old. So, you know, for me, like I was doing treatments in my mid thirties, early threes, But it wasn't so much, uh, age factor. It becomes an age factor after 35 which, you know,

spk_0:   12:07
it's not like immediately at 35 but we know that fertility is on a timeline. So But you're starting at a young enough age that your issues wasn't equality. You weren't even sure at this point. So you were.

spk_1:   12:21
We weren't sure, but we were encouraged that I always produced many eggs. And the embryos always looked according to our is beautiful. And, you know, even after being 35 going through IVF, I was producing a lot of aches. So it was. It was a mystery for a while why I had repeated implantation failure or pregnancy loss, because during I think I v f number one or two, I got pregnant and also lost that pregnancy.

spk_0:   12:50
Also relatively early on first trimester.

spk_1:   12:53
Yes, that one was earlier. That one happened, you know, probably have five or six weeks. No heartbeat was detected, but I really hit rock bottom at that point because at that point we had been trying for something like four years, and I just was exhausted and financially depleted. And because that was one of a number one or two I. V s and I had these good looking blastocyst embryos, and we just was sure it was gonna work,

spk_0:   13:20
you know? And that's a hard thing to you were talking about hard when somebody tells you. Oh, my gosh. It's a beautiful blastocysts, which blastocyst is usually a five day old embryo. Yes, At that point they could see a lot of the formation and they continue. They could grade it and they tell you it looks beautiful and then it doesn't work. And in some ways I mean, I guess it's better. Thio, at least have had the know you can make good looking embryos. But when it doesn't work, it's like a double edged sword.

spk_1:   13:48
It really is. It's, ah, why I started. I'm sure we'll talk about pregnant after, but why? Why I call it being pregnant ish is because it's a mind trip. When you're in the first stage of a literal pregnancy with a fully formed you know, the Hagens from a fertile lights, it's created a good looking embryo. You're implanted with this embryo. You're in the first stage of pregnancy, your hormonal from treatments. You're told by your doctor not to drink, not over. You know, you're you're in the first stage of pregnancy,

spk_0:   14:20
and you're feeling the symptoms of

spk_1:   14:21
praying is feeling the symptoms of pregnancy. So I think it's a state of being pregnant ish when you have infertility because it's precarious. Yeah, you can be a little bit pregnant. Everyone who's gone through infertility knows that

spk_0:   14:34
you are. Yeah, although often times you feel like you're 100% pregnant because I think that people discount the loss because you said, well, you were only six weeks pregnant or you're only eight weeks pregnant. That is just not true, are it? Could be for some people. But for many, many people, it is simply not true. The pain, the expectation. I mean, in many ways, you've been building up the love four and the expectations for this child for five years at this point, Yes. Oh, all right. So you hit rock bottom. You lost another pregnancy, Probably second IVF. Did you have any embryos frozen at this point?

spk_1:   15:13
No. And in fact, I was discouraged from doing that. And I was discouraged from genetically testing and Rios because what happens when you're ah fiction? And you know this and your listeners know this after a while of repeated failures or losses, You start going to Dr Google, you start you're looking around and I just knew like, this doesn't make sense. My levels looked good. According to my doctors, my embryos look beautiful. According to my doctors. What is going on? And I remember asking in 2014 at the end of 2014 and I said to again unnamed doctor and by the way, I love so many reproductive doctors. They've helped so many millions of people. But in this case, I'm just mentioning, too, that I did not have a good experience with this. This doctor said to me, Save your money, go to Hawaii on. I'll never forget that because he felt that it's too expensive, You know, at the time this was 2014. Genetic testing was more expensive than it is today. I was $6000 will never forget to test whether it was one or eight embryos. It was $6000 he said, Go to Hawaii and I said to my husband, He's right. I'm too stressed. I need a break. We didn't go toe, but I but I knew I knew what he meant. But they always say It's you know, you look at things in retrospect and you kick yourself like genetic testing would have been a huge open clue for me if I had pursued that, because I just kept doing endless cycles without that and just failing and failing. And 2015 at the end of 2015. Now I'm I'm fertility treatment, probably 15 or something working. I don't even know I lost count because I did seven I you eyes and I did like four full IVF CE and I was doing to so many treatments and then between Ivy outside throwing another I I mean, it was just nonstop foremost for years at gosh, just terrible

spk_0:   17:13
and I can't

spk_1:   17:14
tie. It was just part of my everyday life that I was running back in port to the doctor, and I I joke that and my intro video for pregnant. It's just called. I staked it on national television because I was all over. I was hosting another TV show for discovery in these years with fertility shots and my percent on air and just like, kind of not closeted with my friends. But people did not know what was happening behind the scenes, which it's just common for anyone going through this. You're just balancing so much. And I was running back and forth to the doctor and finally, in 2015 at the end of 2015 a doctor who had transferred a different doctor in Canada, who I really like. We went back to Canada for one cycle in summer of 2015. He said to me, If this embryo doesn't work, he told me this in September 2015. We need you to genetically test because this blastocyst looks wonderful. It's very high grade. It should work. And I even took a 14 hour or 12 to 14 hour train ride home to New York or Bus Ride home to New York, because I was convinced that I caused my my other pregnancy losses by flying. So I took this long ride back. You know, I don't even eat meat. I ate red meat. I did everything that I read every old tale that I read to keep the embryo in there, and I got the results back in December. We've done a frozen transfer, he said less to a frozen lake. Let your body relax So we tried new things December 2015. I got the call that it didn't work, and that's when my doctor said to me on the phone, I cannot do another transfer with you unless you do genetic testing because I I want to know what's happening. I don't know if it's your uterine environment, because we know I still probably had some endo. We didn't cut me open to determine it, but when we had my fibroid surgery, they sound a little bit of that. We knew I had fibroid tumors. Still, we knew I had high natural killer cells which may or may not impact implantation, that, you know, the jury's out of that. But the point is, I had Yeah, and and I just had an enough things. And he felt the missing piece was genetic testing because we wanted to know if my ex were okay, and it's so in 2016 we did more rounds of egg retrievals to try to genetically test embryos. So between 2016 and 2017 I did another on a three or four IVF retrievals. But I didn't do transfers. We created embryos I don't even remember honestly done how many? Because it's all a blur. Because when you go through almost a decade of this, everything I don't know. I don't know in the timeline where things but there are certain moments that are punctuated. I know what holiday it was when I was, you know, experiencing a miscarriage, for instance. But so we genetically tested the embryos. Now, in 2017 I think it was January 2017 or the end of 2016. And we had, ah, couple healthy embryos. And, um,

spk_0:   20:19
let me stop you here and let me ask a question. All right, So you had a number of embryos. You have gone through a couple at least more than two IVF cycles. You produce good eggs. So you would. You had quite a few embryos genetically tested and all of them, And of the ones you genetically tested, only a few were chromosome. Look,

spk_1:   20:39
crawl. We we tested, I think six and actually half were okay, so we didn't like what? What's what's it was strange about? The story is one IVF retrieval was completely botched, and that was an issue at the clinic. I'm sorry for putting the click because there are a

spk_0:   20:57
lot of great

spk_1:   20:58
clinics, but I just are so many bumps along the way. Another one. I just had a very bad month, and we probably produced one embryo. You know, it wasn't always It was. It went back and forth, but for the most part, with, like, let's say I did three retrievals. We probably had to blast from each something like that, though of that, we had to Chelsea ones and in one mosaic, and then we had three that were not deemed healthy. Okay, so my doctor felt encouraged by that, actually and said, I think it's your body and not because keep in mind, we had tried 1st 6 years before that when I was even younger. So anyway, the point is, he basically said, I think your best shot at meeting her baby is working with gestational carrier. I have never heard of that term. I had heard of surrogacy. I didn't know you. No one says a circuit.

spk_0:   21:58
Yeah, well, exactly. Okay, so I'm gonna pause here, everybody. We're going to move in. Zits. I'm, you know, a cliffhanger. We're going to find out how it ends. Let me stop and remind everyone that this show is brought to you by the Fairing Pharmaceutical. They have been underwriting this show, and we are so appreciative of their underwriting support, and they want you to know about an app called vertical. It was designed by a reproductive psychologist or actually to protect psychologist, and it is designed specifically to help women address the many challenging emotional life situations that arise while struggling to conceive. Andrew has been describing a lot of those challenging situations. There's the reality is infertility is stressful, and learning how to cope with this stress are getting help. Coping with this stress is really helpful. And this app for two compact because just that you can get more information about it at the website. Berta Calm That's a P d at the end dot com. All right, we are talking with Andrea, Sir Tash about living with infertility. She is the founder of pregnant dish, not calm. And we're gonna talk about more about pregnant ish in a minute. We left off, and Andrea has been going through heck and back, cleaning it up for the radio here, making this a family stoker and has gone through more IVF. So are somewhere in the range of between I, V S and IIS and everything else. 15 to 17. She has been basically on harmonics, which is the part I cannot imagine on hormones for close to 10 years. In other words, it has been a trial. Now they have finally done the genetic testing and they know they have three genetically or to genetically normal embryos. But at this point, they're having to make the assumption that there is something with your body that is, is not allowing embryos to implant by any chance. At this point, I'm trying to remember it's, you know, it's funny because when you're involved in this field, it's hard to remember, you know, win developments come along and that Yeah, so, you know, because, honestly, when you when you were first thinking about genetically testing what I was thinking, you know him and saying you wish you had And I was thinking, Well, but, you know, the genetic tests have come along. The progress has just been really miraculously in the last five years. And this was before that. So who knows? Buddy? Wait. Did they do any form? I don't remember when the in Dmitri A ll receptivity test started coming around.

spk_1:   24:35
That was a little later. I think so. Now, genetic testing Waas offered to other Since I knew when I had asked my doctor in 2014 or 2015 it just I was at a higher cost because you couldn't test each embryo. You had to send a batch.

spk_0:   24:52
It was also the problem of having to do it. Get your test results back really quickly because freezing and they're still better Chances were with their fresh cycle.

spk_1:   25:01
Exactly. Does only what changed. And, you know, I think again my doctor was playing detective just by saying the fact that I've gone through 17 or 18 treatments over six years at that point or I think, five years, six years, and we had tried naturally. And we've had my fibroid removal and I had good looking embryos from his band Vantage Point. It all added up to him that something should have worked by now.

spk_0:   25:28
You know, it's and that's common sense in a way, and I've always appreciative when doctors well say OK, waken keep running tests. But the reality is you know something should have clicked and it hasn't. So the only thing that's left the only variable that we could control right now is the vessel, so to speak. So he's thatjust surrogacy in your mind. Surrogacy was using. We were thinking what we now call traditional surrogacy, where the surrogate often just goes through an I ally with the male partners sperm and her egg. And so she is conceiving and I'm using air quotes and naturally we heard his sperm. And so that's what you were thinking of but was suggested was a gestational surrogate. Tell us the distinction there.

spk_1:   26:14
Decisional Surrogacy essentially means that the carrier, the surrogate, isn't using her own genetic material. It's not her egg in her body that's that fertilized with the sperm. So the gestational carrier, I was told by my Ari and Canada meant that we would use our genetic embryo. That had been P G T A. Well, now it's called P G. T. A. Used to be called PGS tested, uh, genetic tested. We would use that healthy embryo, put it in her body. Uh, if she had had successful life births, you know, healthy pregnancies, we have a 60 to 80% chance of meeting of a baby that way, And he said, and that's to me was like full records stop. I hadn't heard a statistic like that, even through IVF. I was so dazzled that as sad as it was for me to let go of the idea of carrying my baby, that was undeniable. You know, a statistic that was comforting to me. And so I I said, Okay, now I just need to find a just a shell carrier which I laugh at today because there is no Just when it comes to any of these steps are stat are long processes. But that was in early. I think that was late 20 again. I'm confused timelines. I think it was either late 2016 after more retrievals or early 2017 after we got the test results of the genetic testing on, and we prepared applications for a surrogacy agency in Canada at the time because that's where we were from originally, and the it felt more within reach financially for us.

spk_0:   28:02
Is it less? I am not familiar with Canadian surrogacy laws are I'm assuming it's a fully legal in all promises, Okay,

spk_1:   28:12
it's fully legal. It's also there's a really good protection for both independent parents and surrogates, and it's altruist, which is controversial. I mean, some people don't believe in off a rustic surrogacy whereby the carrier is not compensated for carrying. You still are covering all you know, expenses that relate to the pregnancy that medical expenses you're covering, baby sitting or cleaning or they care any needs that the carrier has. But you're not actually paying for her uterus usage. Yeah, just like

spk_0:   28:47
that would save considerable money.

spk_1:   28:49
Yes, that does. And it saves on average. I mean, I I can't I'm not speaking from with any exact of price here, but I was told that it would save on average, about $50,000 so

spk_0:   29:04
that would make sense. That would actually make sense. I'm so that would even make that much are less do. You may not know the answer. This I'm just curious. Do you have to be a Canadian citizen in order to utilize that Canadian

spk_1:   29:18
You do not and they have a big medical tourism program, but it's probably easier if you're Canadian citizen. There are more fees if you're not Canadians of this, and I still had some health care coverage, the basic structure of the Canadian system because it's altruistic. There's also a downside to it, which is someone's volunteering, which is, I think, all of surrogacy. It's just a beautiful thing for anyone to help people who need help to bring a baby into the world. But, you know, it's more each other illegal contracts. And when you're volunteering, it's just gonna be a little risk here, because and that's what we learned. So

spk_0:   30:00
yeah, risky or not? And let me make sure I'm clarifying not risk your medically for or anything at riskier in the sense that if I think if I'm understanding you correctly, what you're saying is that it would be if the surrogate is not being compensated or the nine months that she is carrying a baby, it is easier for her to back out. I think if I'm understanding what you're saying,

spk_1:   30:25
absolutely, that is what I'm saying, and I learned that the hard way. I know a lot, by the way, there are plenty of people who work with gestational surrogates and traditional store gets in Canada and have good experiences. We did not. We worked with two who dropped out on us. So between 2017 and 2018 I put in my application in 2017. It took months to match with one, and they pick. You know, the carrier in this case perfects the couple. And the 1st 1 lived in the west coast of Canada and picked us. She had just carried for a gay couple a few months prior to that. And her husband felt very uncomfortable with her entering a new agreement so soon. And I understand that. Yeah. Um, so she dropped out relatively fast. It was the 2nd 1 that we were mass with again. Months go by. Nothing is fast in this world. So everything takes months of paperwork and testing and magic. Um, the 2nd 1 we met in August 2017. I'll never forget her Skype with her. And I thought, this is meant to be. She said everything right. She told us she picked us because we had gone through such a hard time and she really wanted to help. And I believe in her hurt. That was riel. But she goes to dust into December of 2017 and I never spoke to her again after we had paid for all the medical testing, all the legal negotiations, all the counseling that is required and surrogacy agreements. We've gone through months between September and December. Of that I had been sending her child gifts. We had written letters and we said yes to literally everything she asked for in the legal contract because we were so grateful to her that we weren't going to say no to anything and she just disappeared. And the agency we worked with, what? We're up front about it either. And in January, I'll never forget. January 6 2018 I got the email that was just sent me reeling, basically said, Our plans have changed. We lost over $10,000 it was not the money. It was one thing for my body to fail me or for infertility to just constantly let me down. But human error, human indecision or it just felt so cruel. And I always tried to be compassionate and consider someone else this perspective. But the way it was andl was also really upsetting. We just never got an answer personally. But around this time in mid January, my mother in law was going through chemotherapy We were just juggling a lot. And my husband and I just felt hopeless, completely hopeless. We were financially depleted, mostly depleted. And my cousin, my first cousin, Atlanta, her husband email me and a happy New Year. How are you doing? And you're supposed to just say great, Happy New Year. And

spk_0:   33:24
that was really Yeah, There was a member of the correct response. And that was about you.

spk_1:   33:31
Exactly. I think he thought it would be a quick conversation. Ah, and I just said no. I mean, it was over Facebook is that I'm doing terribly. How are you, my surrogate? My cousin knew we were working with this woman, but she knew that story. I said she just dropped out on us and we can't see straight. And the next day my cousin, he told his wife, my cousin Atlanta, She's my first cousin and he texted her. I mean, she texted me and she said, Have you ever thought of a family member to help? I want to carry your baby. I I was shaking when I tell you. Like the phone probably dropped. I was shaking so much and crying so much that I couldn't even call her. She should call me. I said, I can't. I'm not speaking English right now. I just knew when I got that text that this is that I knew it was because she personally flustered deeply. She has two beautiful kids that she carried had healthy pregnancies. She and I have always been connected and clothes, and I just felt like this was the answer. He said, Let's do this and that And that's how I have a 10 month old baby today. She was. The transfer happened. This is a bizarre fact. The same day that it my egg was retrieved in April 2016. Transfer happen. 2018. Yeah, and that's a coincidence, you could say in quotes, but who knows? And she delivered her baby in December of 2018. So

spk_0:   34:55
wow, yeah, that was no embryo. Yep, that people will often when you I think there are so many misconceptions in general about fertility infertility, but but in specific right now I'm talking about surrogacy. People will say, Well, I'll have, you know, have you asked your sister, Have you asked and I'm thinking, you know, but that, you know, that's that's not just a Hey, can I borrow a couple shirt clips? A big dorn asked.

spk_1:   35:20
Huge ask. And it's so like one thing I always say is Stop using the word. Just, er should yes, exactly. Ice to people with infertility. Well, advice and generals. But e, I'll stand for this audience because there's no no, just about any. And ladies, Very, uh oh, should. It's a personal, highly personal process in decision. The use should just is the worst combination of words. But we've all heard that we've

spk_0:   35:51
only just adopt is another one. Why don't you just adopt I

spk_1:   35:55
that What? Yes, if you go like the puppy pounds and

spk_0:   35:58
as if just could be used to describe a process such as adoption because that yeah, but yeah. And in just happy just now, why don't you just ask your sister? Oh, yeah. Uh,

spk_1:   36:10
you should just ask your friends. Yeah, All of this is I know people are well intentioned, but, you know, I'm a relationships writer. So one of my big goals of pregnant it's has been to teach, not teach, but I should say guide Allen's relations during this

spk_0:   36:27
process. Yeah, okay. Yeah, for sure. Let me pause briefly to remind people that this show is brought to you by the very generous support of our partners. And these are organizations at clinics who believe in our mission that providing unbiased, medically accurate information through the infertility community. One such partner is Christ International Sperm, a nickname they're dedicated to, providing a wide selection of high quality, extensively screened frozen donor sperm and eggs. And they cover all races, ethnicities and FINA tides. And they can provide you sperm for both home insemination as well as fertility treatment. BIOS International is the world's largest firm bank and the first free standing independent egg bank in the United States. We also are partnered with Reproductive Medicine Associates Need of New York. They're one of the largest fertility practices in the states and one of the biggest in the country. By combining the latest innovations in reproductive sciences with compassionate and customized treatment, plans are in May of New York is able to provide the very best possible care. All right, we are talking with Andrea, Sir Tash about her long and rather arduous. I guess everybody's is pretty arduous, but yours does seem to really take the cake here with infertility. So your cousin had two Children of her own and he was willing to carry a baby for you and then relatively quickly if you did the transfer. But I'm assuming you did a single embryo transfer.

spk_1:   38:01
Well, we did so because of the genetic testing that was recommended to us, and they knew it was healthy, so they transferred one in April 38th. Now I should say she offered in January. It was a fast track because of who my cousin is in who I am. We're both riel doers and go getters. So together we were on fire, pushing through all the steps. And

spk_0:   38:25
you said, because that's pretty fast, pretty

spk_1:   38:28
fast. She's modern Orthodox. I should mention she even consulted with a rabbi to make sure she could do this. I am not religious, but she comes from a more religious framework, and she didn't want to start a shots over passed over. She had all these kind of date restrictions with that, but otherwise she was really wide open. And she's one of these fertile people, and we I always joke about this. But just every time they did ultrasounds, it's a Oh, everything looks beautiful in your uterus. Like I never got that. He planned her pregnancies her let her two kids she wanted summer, baby. She had summer, baby. So she said to me, I'd like to deliver your baby between ideally between December and February. Uh, I e what

spk_0:   39:15
happened? Did you laugh when she said

spk_1:   39:17
I Hotlanta, you don't know the all the hiccups in this process with Fred thing just happened. Seamless had the embryo. We, um it worked on the first try. I mean, it was Yeah, it was great.

spk_0:   39:33
And does she live near you are our deal of different places.

spk_1:   39:37
Well, we were really lucky in that my Canadian cousin lives in New Jersey, and I live in New York were also lucky that New Jersey has good surrogacy laws. A New York, of course, is still in another era and does not. So that was lucky. And my cousin, you know, is like a 45 60 minutes hard ride. I'm a New Yorker, so I don't have a car, but I would take, you know, a lot of shared rags here, and I don't have the major ultrasounds and big appointments and we'd speak on the phone and we'd face time and and she had a really great pregnancy. The hardest part for her, I think, was the first part of progesterone shots because she had never done fertility treatments that that was more challenging for her, she says, then the pregnancy itself.

spk_0:   40:22
It's interesting. Yeah, when she haven't for you, you're used to being a human pin cushion. But she was, you know, And so uh, yeah, and so having two. So fortunately she had, and it sounds like a relatively easy pregnancy. And what were some of the emotions that you go through when someone else is carrying your baby? And this is somebody you trust completely, which I could only imagine would make it easier. But I could also just imagine that there would just be a whole mixture of jealousy. Quite frankly, our nerves are, and it's it's not a person that you know intimately. Then you worry. Did you have 1/2 a glass of wine or hang? Did she sneak a cigarette or, you know, whatever you know? Absolutely. Let's talk about some of that. It is complicated, it's you have no control, and that's part of the issue. You know what drives you nuts?

spk_1:   41:14
Yeah, definitely. I think it was. Well, the fact that I trust her is huge. I will say, and it's It's I mean, it's literally true that it's an out of body experience.

spk_0:   41:24
Have you? All right, but I'm bummed, all right?

spk_1:   41:29
Yeah, exactly. By the way, I run pregnant ish. Clearly, I like puns. And so yeah, exactly like wordplay. But but no, Elena. I was used to sing her pregnant. The weirdest part for me was registering that. It was my baby in her. I was like, Great, this is awesome. But it was, like, hard for me to connect that it was my baby. Yeah. Whenever semi great audio of like the heartbeat. When I wasn't at an appointment sometimes, but that was interesting. And Thea other part. I think that's challenging about it. But then I'll tell you what was wonderful about it. But what was also challenging about it was a lot of people were kind of treating it like not not people who knew me. People who knew my story. We're so happy for me. And but everyone was putting kind of weird guilt on me. Okay, That I would sell.

spk_0:   42:26
Okay, I will say it. There is a a misconception. There's kind of this, like it's the easy way out. You just don't feel like going through nine months of being having heartburn and having slept Mark and that. And the problem is, even if they don't say it, because moment, assume most people would have the good sense not to actually. Yeah, articulate that. But it's like a subtext. Yeah,

spk_1:   42:51
it is. It is. Even when I was tired when she delivered two days and I was pretty tired set a new board, people would say, But how can you be tired? You didn't deliver? Well, I'm not tired from the last eight years of trying to have this

spk_0:   43:03
duty and also the fact that I'm not sleeping, Okay, I'm just getting I

spk_1:   43:07
I have a baby. You know, there's a lot of the strange things that dynamics that come into play with not carrying outsiders perspectives. Atlanta was so socially and emotionally intelligent, well adjusted. She always knew how to respond when people would say, How will you feel when the babies taken from you should say no Babies being taken from me. I'm carrying my cousin's baby like Think of it like an organ trade donor. But that's how she saw it and said she was. She educated a lot of people through it. We did a lot of media, so I've been in the media for years. So you know, when my story became public that morning, America covered international infertility, where this week we're Reader's Digest in people magazine. I mean, it was all over the place last year because it was such an epic story. But there was another deeper entry, and I won't. We only have so much time to go through content here. So people article to find out the deeper layers with you, why this pregnancy was so special. E mean, this stealing, I will just tell you, is out of body. But also, thank God this baby's not in my body because I would have lost it.

spk_0:   44:16
Well, yeah, you didn't have a good track record. And so, in a way, uh, I hope that you were able to say that I'm giving this child a gift to not be carrying it. I

spk_1:   44:26
was I did feel that and I and I would have been so much more nervous with the embryo in my body than a carrier. Who's healthy carrying?

spk_0:   44:35
Yeah. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. So I want to talk about pregnant dishes. Well, pregnant dish dot com, and that's pregnant with fish on the end dot com. So why did you start it

spk_1:   44:48
So long? Story short. It was originally a book that because I'm an author, I told my agent about it in 2013. I said, I want to write the book of the effects of infertility on relationships it's under. That's a

spk_0:   45:00
That is a important book, too, right? I'm just gonna

spk_1:   45:03
says it really is, and I'm lighting it. I'm still writing the contract all the time about that exile. Excellent. So that was the idea of my agents that we have interest. I lost the pregnancy. I said, I can't write it. The next year the same thing happened. I can't write it. Eventually, in 2016 I thought, I have to cover this topic on I realized it's beyond it. Sze more than me. It's more than my voice. I wasn't at the time able to find a good content site that spoke to me. I mean there were good blog's, but they were both mostly personal blog's about people's journeys. There were good medical sites. There was resolved the National Infertility Association, which does great work. But there wasn't. You know, I am a content person, and I come from lifestyle media. I didn't feel there was lifestyle platform. This was again in 2016 that was exclusively dedicated to sit. This topic was always a vertical in parenting magazine, so all the parenting magazines had infertility section. But that's a terrible place to hang out when you're going through this. So we launched. Pregnant Ish is the first nonmedical the first kind of lifestyle site in this category. Help singles Couples LGBT navigate getting pregnant with help. There were some sites dedicated to IVF only, but we were really content beyond IVF. I mean, it's just modern family building. Of course, this is your great podcast does this? But our show, our site became a media site. So not just articles, not just them videos. We do live events. That's really a 360 fight where we featured over 50 professional writers. It was really important to me to hire great writers to hire a great editor, which we have. So all the content is curated and produced with the same. You know, the same process that I went through in the book world with riel editing and

spk_0:   47:00
yeah, making it professional. So, yeah, from your on this is a general question, but you can answer it fairly generally. But who you say are the biggest misconceptions about, let me say, fertility and infertility. You have been in this role for a long time, and as we say, there are so many misconceptions but no money. There are so many.

spk_1:   47:22
Yeah, well, OK, you mentioned once. So I will say that the biggest misconception is around age, but not for the reason people think. I think that both ends ages. A big misconception. Ages of misconception in that one, Halle Berry's on the cover of a magazine at 48 or 50 pregnant people think, Oh, that to be me like we don't know the back story of how that happened. With all the celebrities over 45 sporting baby bumps like statistically, it's unlikely they if they didn't freeze their own eggs. It's unlikely they use their own eggs. But that is confusing to our readers because at 46 47 they're tryingto do that. And I think the media doesn't always help when we put celebrities on the cover and don't tell the whole story. So ages and ages, the misconception that end. But it's also the misconception on the other end that it's always an age issue. We just did a national survey of our audience. The average age was 33 people who are reading our content 33 that's around. You know, my that was around when we were trying. So I think age just all around is misunderstood when it comes to infertility,

spk_0:   48:31
and I would agree 100% with what you're saying. It cuts both ways and in particular it makes that women who are younger, you know who are under 35 feel so alone like, OK, why is this him is not support? This is supposed to be. It also adds, this is supposed to be happening to women who are older. But it also adds kind of a a layer of shame or guilt for women who are 35 to 43 or 44 who you know that well, you brought this on yourself. You were the one way. So it cuts. It hurts that way as well does. Okay, so that's Do you have another miss consent?

spk_1:   49:08
Yes. I'll give you two quick ones. So one is that it's a rich white woman's issue. I mean, we know that over 30% is male factor. We know that at the fax African American women and high numbers, you felt like all of these. That is the story of infertility. We see too much and getting on. I didn't finish. We have diverse voices. We've written about trans infertility. We've written about, Ah, black women in infertility. We've had a lot of wonderful asking American voices, Indian, Asian. We just have to talk about the diversity of the number of people in effects. It's a disease defined by the CDC is a disease. The last thing I'll say is it was conception is that it is a disease that Listen, I I launched a lifestyle site to talk about this disease, but it traditionally it's been considered a lifestyle issue that's been served. Medical resource is I've kind of flipped the script and said, Well, it's actually a medical issue that needs more lifestyle support.

spk_0:   50:08
Yeah, I couldn't agree with you more. So now you are. You're in a weird position. Potentially. You are in the infertility world, both as a professional now. And you certainly have spent many, many, many years of your life, your formative years of your life struggling with infertility. But you're also a mom. And so we talk with people who are kind of betwixt and between, you know, they don't know where they belong. Has that been your experience? Are you That doesn't affect everyone. So what's your experience on that?

spk_1:   50:40
Well, I just haven't interviewed the other day where someone should have Is it feel to be on the other side? And I corrected her. And I said, Well, I know what you mean, but I don't think I'm on the other side. I still very much, um, infertile. I have another healthy embryo. Maybe I'd love to meet, and I can't probably use my body. I'm probably having hysterectomy, so I definitely can't use my body. And so Yeah, what does it mean to be on the other side? What does it feel like? You have the, um um in this community there. It's It's very complex because there's obviously, like Survivor guilt. They call it I will say, because because I went through about 18 treatments that took me eight years to meet Baby. That helps. Strangely, I think our audience Yeah, like I really get it. Um,

spk_0:   51:27
you paid your dues

spk_1:   51:28
paying dues, and I also really will never shake that off. I mean, that's just punctuated my marriage. It's been part of my adult life, like so. I think if you go through a year, it's still very painful. But you might be able to kind of move on. I've heard people say, Oh, once you hear kids, you don't think about it anymore. I don't think that's true for a number of us.

spk_0:   51:51
Yeah, yeah. And people say that with adoption as well won't want to adopt, you will. And then that puts pressure and makes you feel like if I feel any grief are if I get a baby announcement and it makes me sad somehow betraying the love I feel for my child case, it would be less than love you feel for your child, but more. Yeah, I'm stuck in the past, but I don't think you could go through a life altering event. And you certainly went through a very long life altering event and not have it impacted.

spk_1:   52:20
I Absolutely, Brianna and I always say, the people in my relationship advice the wonderful part of being human is that gonna hold two emotions that seemingly in flick? Yeah, acting for a friend who's pregnant and sad for yourself. And they're both right. And so it can be complicated, Messi. And that's okay.

spk_0:   52:40
Yeah, we as humans are pretty complicated and pretty messy. And, you know, they were feared for it. So Hee, So I think we will be okay. Well, thank you so much, Andrea. Sir Tish, for everyone who I know now wants to find out more about pregnant issue can go to their website pregnant fish dot com. You can get more information about Andrew. Andrew. What is your personal whips? I think it's Andrea, sir. Test?

spk_1:   53:02
That's right. I have a funny You probably put it a certain it's but I and research com You can also find me cheat on your husband with your husband Is an easier book title to remember that my last name?

spk_0:   53:15
Yep. There you go. So you could just you could you know that as well. And you will remind everyone that the views expressed in this show are those of the guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of creating a family. Our partners are underwriters. Also keep in mind that the information given in this interview is general advice. To understand how it applies to your specific situation, you need to work with your infertility professional. Thank you, everyone, and we will see you next week.