Parenting Children Who Have Experienced Trauma

How can we parent our children who have experienced trauma. How can we discipline them in a way that will help them learn and grow. We talk with Karen Doyle Buckwalter, a clinical social worker specializing in attachment and trauma, and author of Raising the Challenging Child: How to Minimize Meltdowns, Reduce Conflict, and Increase Cooperation.

Transcript

spk_0:   0:08
Welcome everyone to Creating a Family - Talk about adoption and foster care. Today we're going to be talking about raising A child who has experienced trauma with Karen Doyle Buckwalter.  Karen is a clinical social worker at Chaddock and has worked with Children and families for over 30 years with specializations and attachment and trauma issues. Her work has been published in peer review journals as well as books and magazines, and she hosts the popular Attachment Theory and Action podcast. Her book, Raising the Challenging Child How to Minimize Meltdown to Reduce Conflict and Increased Cooperation, will be published in 2020. Welcome Karen to Creating a Family.Thank you, I'm so happy to be here. I admire your work and

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spk_0:   0:00


spk_0:   0:00
Thank you for all you do in this arena, and I'm often on your Facebook group. Checking out session is, and so I'm really happy to be here with you. Don

spk_0:   1:04
Wonderful. Let's start. We're talking about trauma, and, uh, let's start by talking What is trauma? And you know, And it's an interesting question because I hear kind of in the zeitgeist now, people talking about trauma and it's like, Oh, yeah, I've had such trauma and and it seems like you know, trauma can be traffic on the way to work. Our trauma can be, Ah, having an overbearing mother or trauma could be anything it feels like when people are talking about it. It's used very loosely now, and perhaps that's accurate. Perhaps trauma really is meant to be used loosely. So what? How do you define trauma?

spk_1:   1:43
Well, you know, whenever it comes too late, let's have an official definition. I always go to the National Child Traumatic Stress Network and kind of see what they have, And that's actually a great resource for your listeners to even be aware of us. We're talking about this, but its immensity and overwhelmingly terrifying experience. Usually you feel that your life is at risk. You are afraid of harm or somebody around you so you can experience trauma. Ah, childhood experience, trauma by seeing apparent beaten, I think that sometimes people don't realize that in terms of when we think about domestic violence, well, as long as the child wasn't getting hit because there's an overwhelming fear that you are at risk for bodily injury or witnessing something that dangerous, that is trauma on. And I think a thing that people also forget to separate. Um, that we can probably talk about is there's trauma and there's PTSD. Everybody. That experience is a traumatic event does not develop PTSD,

spk_0:   2:48
so that that's a very interesting point. So what is the distinction between trauma and PTSD

spk_1:   2:55
so you could experience a traumatic event? You could have let Elizabeth is in the frame of Children. Since that's what we're talking about. You could have caregivers around you that are very supported. You could, you know, go back to a situation where you got a lot of attention and support. And if you need counseling or whatever, and you could not develop PTSD, which would mean you don't start having nightmares. You're not constantly thinking about this. You're not having symptoms of depression. You're not afraid to go to the area. Maybe where the trauma happened or something like that. So we do know secure attachment is a big resiliency factor for trauma, and that's one of the ways that attachment and trauma both go together. I heard a quote once that I loved that trauma is not about what happens to you, but whether or not you have someone's arms to run into after the trauma. So and we even saw this done just a little tangential issue in 9 11 They did some work looking at people who works, uh, exhibiting posttraumatic stress disorder after the 9 11 event and the lower the level of stress and a person's life and home, the less likely they were to develop PTSD symptomology. So if he went home to a warm, loving environment, a low stress environment, a place where you felt safe, you're less likely to develop PTSD and somebody that went into a chaotic situation. Or, you know, maybe you're on the verge of divorce or you've got all kinds of things going on with your kids, and you just don't have a safe place to run.

spk_0:   4:44
D'oh! Yeah, that that safe place to cocoon and nurture and be nurtured and and healed. I mean, that's in essence. Running into someone's arms is a way of of licking your wounds. So the speaker of being of regenerating and what will come back to that? Because I think that's really important for parents who are fostering and adopting kids who have experienced trauma.

spk_1:   5:08
One more quick piece that's worth mentioning is also a lot is Ah, look related to physiology. So we also know you know what your physiology elevates. You know, we said, you're frightened here, terrified to your heart. Rate's going up your quarters all all of that is happening in your body. And we've seen it work Where if, uh, there was a study done with people exposed Thio bombing, suicide bombing. But they didn't die, but they went to the emergency room and got treatment for something. And if they left the emergency room with her heart rate low and everything back to baseline in terms of physiology, they were much less likely to go to develop PTSD elevated physiology. That's why things like yoga and Tai Chee and meditation and mindfulness and all of this they're becoming so popular in the trauma literature is that lowering that physiology and being able to do that as quickly as possible will greatly reduce the incidence of PTSD

spk_0:   6:13
well and so often for us. From a parenting standpoint, we're not in the position to do that. At the time, our Children have often been exposed to more than one traumatic event, and quite often it's a Siris are a lifestyle of trauma before they come to us. So let's talk about how Children are particularly vulnerable because they're in a situation where they are either continually experiencing trauma or there's always the possibility that trauma are something traumatic will happen. So have is that impact our kids before they come to us?

spk_1:   6:50
Yes. And so there. We want to draw the distinction to between complex trauma and a single episode trauma. So now what? You're just so somebody going out into a car accident and then being traumatized by that and developing PTSD. But they get treatment. They're gonna get better a lot more quickly than what you're describing. Complex trauma, which is multiple different traumatic events and often involving caregivers. So that again brings a whole other level of concern to the table because we know that What were we saying? You seek protection from an attachment figure, so if the attachment figure or the person you seek protection from is the person who also harms you, we have a real major problem there. So complex trauma. Now we're going to talk about something much bigger multiple events and often involving caregivers and like you said, ongoing and so That's why the statement that you said earlier about you know it's not just I'm having a bad hair day and I feel strong because that that's why we have to really understand, like there's different levels Peter Hunt of Great Packed in terms of understanding that the way we're using in the common vernacular, that is like, totally like I said, with the hair, that's like a totally different thing on. We have to understand Single episode trauma is also different than complex trauma, and complex trauma is harder to treat, and Children are much more likely to feel helpless because they are

spk_0:   8:27
because they are helpless. Yes, yeah, and I think that is important. And the reality is very often adoptive and foster. Parents don't know the degree of trauma that their Children have experienced, and even if they're they're agencies are trying to tell them everything they know. The agencies don't know, and if they're adopting internationally, the orphanage may not know even what's happening within with inside the orphanage. So we're working in a vacuum and I think a lot of times we want to believe that our Children may have experienced a one time event But it feels like in my experience that it is more likely for Children who have been removed from care from their parents. Care are there are ending up in stake here that it's more likely to be ongoing and continual. I'II complex. Has that been your experience as well?

spk_1:   9:20
Yes, I would agree with that. And I think we have to also understand the idea of the trauma of neglect because most Children into care is for neglect. By and large way higher percentages of Children are coming into foster care for neglect. Dennis Pacific incident like the parent beat them or something. So you know what that means. That ongoing feeling. Ah, you're alone. You're afraid no one is available. No one is there to Steve you. No one's there to help you with what I call your big feelings and four Children who are completely dependent on their caregivers for their survival. That we think of that is the trauma of neglect, because some people think, oh, well, if they weren't beaten, you know, there, you know it is a serious and I think that's another way foster parents get tripped up is not understanding the absence of a consistent caregiver is lonely and often terrifying for young Children.

spk_0:   10:22
It we hear very often parents will say she was just neglected. So I think you are. You are so spot on that we we underplay the impact of neglect,

spk_1:   10:35
and in fact, it can be more pervasive. You know, by now many people have seen these slides of the neglected brain versus the brain that has stimulation on

spk_0:   10:46
what I

spk_1:   10:46
know is chronic neglect like no one talking to you, no one holding. You know, one regulating, helping regulate your emotional states can be more harmful to the brain than inner mitten up. Because off sometimes, when there's these intermittent episodes of violence or things like this hitting the child, even sexual abuse sometimes in between there's good, positive interaction where you have this ongoing chronic need. Black. There's just like nothingness a lot of the time so it can, even in terms of brain development, me were damaging, then incidents of abuse

spk_0:   11:28
does the age of the child when they experienced the trauma, physical trauma, our neglect. Does the age matter? A SZ faras how how it generally impacts a child and how severe the child will be impacted

spk_1:   11:42
you, That is, ah, complicated question. The first thing I would say is, you know, the smaller Children are more vulnerable. It was like the other thing that we know that reduces a PTSD is if you can flee if you can run if you can flee from the situation and get out of it. You know, we talked about that back brain that fight flight freeze, part of the brain. And but often Children can't fleet so, and they often can't fight because they're smaller. So freezing and associative states are often their their only option, which is not the best, because again, that produces more PTSD. Symptomology. So I want to say I mean, I think being young and vulnerable, it's just like we said. It's overwhelming, terrifying and fearful thing. Well, you're going to be overwhelmed and terrified more easily when you're young and in the other. One thing that I used to teach is that pre verbal trauma so trauma that Children can't tell you happened, but they know in their bodies are Children holding their bodies traumatic experiences even before they have language. But, you know, if your therapist or professional wanting to work with that and the charm has no memory of it. They just have feelings of anxiety and year. And when I go to a certain place, your smell a certain smell. However, I later changed that because what I learned later about the brain, as even as an adult, the language part of your brain goes off line when you're terrified. So really, all trauma is like pre verbal trauma, you know? Hence, hence the phrase too scared to scream. Yeah, that that tears. No. So now I'm like, Okay, But I used to think, Well, if it was before, language is harder to treat because they can't tell you what happened. They can't talk about it and all of that. But now I know you know that can happen with adults, too. So I think I do think you just a factor. But I do see these other things that we've been talking about earlier. Too late. If you take your attachment or a trustee caregiver that you can go to the amount of support that you have that can also you know, how frequent was this a one or two times thing or once or twice not to minimize it all. Or was it like you said, Ongoing? Was it a care giver? It's gonna be a lot more traumatic for a child to be traumatized by a caregiver. Then the man down the street or the the uncle that people didn't know was doing this because I thought the primary person

spk_0:   14:26
and they expect to protect them. Yeah,

spk_1:   14:30
E think age is one factor, but I think there's like all of these other ones. That's why I said it was kind of a hard question.

spk_0:   14:36
Yeah, I definitely hear your point. And I think it also matters, as you point out, Was there a person in that child's life who was able to provide nurturance and care and attack? And the child is able to bond, even though bad things were happening? Was there still, you know, we talk about the power of one. Was there it was there one person in that child's life because that connect as a protective factor for yeah, for that child

spk_1:   15:03
100%? Yes,

spk_0:   15:07
let me remind everybody that this show is underwritten by the jockey being Family Foundation. The jockey Being Family Foundation has a national backpack program. It provides newly adopted Children with a backpack personalized with their initials, and each backpack includes a beer in a blanket and a parent tote. And from mice perspective, that's the parent toad I get most excited about because inside that tote there are lots of resource is available for parents to help them along this post adoption journey that they are on with their child, including resource is that would help them with parenting. A child who has been exposed to trauma your agency are your attorney is the one who needs to sign up for the backpack program. It is free for the agency, our attorney, and it's free for the parents. But it does that. You do need to let your agency know if you're interested, let your agency know to go to the jockey being family dot com website and just click on the backpack program, and it's super easy to sign up. They do it that way on purpose, so get your agency to sign up because it is a great resource. All right, let's talk about how to best parent a child who has experienced trauma, and I'd like to start with talking about some of the typical behaviors we might see and Children who've experienced trauma. And then we're gonna talk about how best to prepare it. These kids.

spk_1:   16:31
Yes, yes, well, I think we've already taken step. One of that idea had apparent these kids in our emphasis on the complexity of this and the severity of this and that it's there and that it doesn't go away because you're in a safe place. Suddenly, which I know well, we'll probably talk to that little about that later, but I think intense, emotional upset. I think a lot of times these Children sort of blow their top will blow a fuse or something like that very quickly. I think they often have nightmares, as we mentioned earlier. They have depressive symptoms and symptoms of anxiety, poor emotional regulation. And so the weapon we learned to regulator emotions early on is when we have a caregiver that helps us regulate our emotions and is there for us. If you have a caregiver that gets more except as you're getting upset, if you have a caregiver that just is not around, you're not learning to regulate your internal states and and this is a really big thing, cause there's often a misunderstanding that the parents thing, you know, they just lose it. You know, when it's really like they have not hot person should ho regulate them, help them with big emotions. We know that when you hold a baby rock a baby, calm them down, shushed them all those things. We call that a conversation of limbic systems with the mud, the caregivers, right brain downloading to the baby's right brain. So they're learning. Okay, this is how it feels to come down. This is what my little brain has to dio do that without you. I think they have problems forming attachments, obviously trust issues. And when we're talking about complex trauma that involved caregivers, you're now a new caregiver on and childless, perhaps learn not to trust you. Attention problems when you're in the back part of your brain, which maybe we could could quickly talk about that. We have our cortex, the upper part of our brain, and we have our mid brain where emotional regulation and then our back brain, sometimes called the reptilian brain before the like freeze part of our brain is your from a situation where there was abuse and neglect and you're fearful a lot. You live kind of in that back part of your brain and you scan the environment. You know, parents will say, Oh, they notice everything. Well, it's not necessarily a good thing. They notice everything because they're constantly scanning the environment for safety. But what I want to study related to academic difficulties is if you're constantly having to scanning the environment and think about safety, you can't be in your cortex. You know, they used to say, Put on your thinking cap, Put on your cortex and the child who has this kind of history there, cortex and even their midbrain. Their emotional regulatory part of the ring is being hijacked all the time. By this back grade, is it safe? And my state is someone gonna hit me? Is somebody gonna be there for me? You know, what is that? Laughter. You know, anything in the environment is hijacking that part of their brains. And that's why you see the academic difficulties. And, you know, sometimes we see issues with food and as we see issues with toileting, uh, those kinds of issues are all can all be symptoms of a child that has had trauma in their history,

spk_0:   19:57
and we all still here. Foster parents and adoptive parents both say they need so much attention. They need constant attention. They need me to be doing something with them, interacting with them non stop, and that also could be a result of a pest. Rome

spk_1:   20:15
You know, the way I think that Dawn is they're terrified of being for gotten

spk_0:   20:21
and her.

spk_1:   20:22
They have been for gotten so many times in so many ways that it's almost like I have to know you're here. I have to know you're here. I have to know you're here. I have to know you're here. I have to know I'm safe. It's not a child that doesn't have trauma in their background. It's It's a last compulsive like I want your attention and I want to play and I like attention. Okay, that's a typically developing kid. But when there's almost a compulsion behind it, let's just assess the different. And that's also was very exhausting. Entire.

spk_0:   20:55
Yes, it is. I mean, that's yeah, but compulsion is actually a good way to describe it, because that's often how people parents will describe it to us. They will say it's it's not like a normal kid just needing attention. This is a kid who overwhelmingly is needing every second of my attention. And you know, another thing that we will sometimes see with Children is that they will be the first to reject. That goes back to what you were saying about attachment issues. But a child who may even be starting to attach and then stop and feeling is if they're region. The parents will describe their feeling that they're being rejected. How is that tied into trauma?

spk_1:   21:34
Yeah, well, I think that when when you've lost your first caregivers, which that's the situation, we're talking impound. And Children also are gonna blame themselves, though, of an idealized the caregivers and internalized there was something wrong with me. I wasn't lovable. I'm not wanted, et cetera. And so when you get to another caregiver, you're gonna be on guard. You're gonna think they may not like me. They might get rid of me. That is a terrifying feeling, especially for a little person who can't take care of themselves so sometimes a way to sort of take charge of that and take control because that feels very out of control. When my these people get rid of me, you know, these other people got rid of me. And if you had multiple placements before it, you had other people get rid of you. So I would rather reject you. Or I would rather behave in a way that you don't like me. That feels like I'm at least in control that way. I'm not I That's where they reject you. Before you reject me, I don't want to be at your mercy. I rather like you. Just I just create this circumstance to feel some level of control and my very out of control Life is where that can come in. It can also come in in the we kind of, um, this is good for adult partnerships to We recreate what's familiar to us, so you know we'll act in a certain way to get you to do it. So if I had a caregiver that was really angry and abusive and called me names, I will have this tendency to act in a way that makes you do that, too. Yeah, because that's what's familiar. And that's where you get this situation, which is really compete, and I want to say it out loud here cause I think parents are don't feel like they can say that terrifying situation where foster and adoptive parents will say, I never felt like harming and child until I had this, and that's this isn't all that's going on. But this is a part of what's going on in the child will recreate what they had with you and sort of like you're becoming the parents of

spk_0:   23:49
this, their abuse apparent, right? Right, Just

spk_1:   23:52
because what we have any, How many times do we hear adult? Oh, I keep getting involved with the same kind of relationship That's not good for me, right? So is that kind of thing. And I think another thing that I just cannot wanna interject here in terms of like this behavior and and how hard it is to deal with is that allowed to his parents shoot, they'll say it comes out of nowhere. It just absolutely comes out of nowhere. My message on that is no. Nothing comes out of nowhere. You know, there's there's one of two things going on. You know, one thing I would tell parents is the reason it feels like it comes out of nowhere is because this could, because of their history and their fears and their core sense of not being safe. Not me wanted on a scale, you one and totally relaxed. And 10 I am like, so anxious. I'm jumping out of my skin and ready to lose it. These kids air hovering around 789

spk_0:   24:48
at every for everything. So it takes very little. Yeah,

spk_1:   24:51
really tasted very little, Um, and the other thing that I would say in terms of working with parents, you say it comes out of nowhere and everything's does it. I even said it to you about my own kids. Really. It doesn't come out of nowhere. It's just that the queues are very subtle. No, there's usually a, you know, a tapping on the leg. It's starting or there's a certain look. Kids get in there. I know a lot of the work I do with parents is teaching them to recognize those really subtle cues

spk_0:   25:26
and

spk_1:   25:26
because it's building, it's building and a lot of these kids, their ability to regulate their own emotions is so poor that wants to get to a certain threshold when you missed all those little cuse, which is easy to do in the business of life. But once you get to that threshold, it's kind of the point of no return. And you kind of got it. Waited out

spk_0:   25:50
on Bond.

spk_1:   25:51
It's just gonna be a bad steam for Navy hours. And

spk_0:   25:57
you are even longer and in the sense of the child then beating themselves up because oftentimes even if they're not telling you, they're disappointed in themselves too on. And they didn't want this to happen the way it now, even if they're not going to acknowledge it. Okay, thank you. That was that was helpful.

spk_1:   26:15
Yeah, because when you think about okay, how you parent these kids, the one day I think about a lot is proactive and prevention, proactive and prevention. He was most parents I work with. It's too late in the game, you know, the kids already out of control, losing it, kicking, spitting, biting. And they are not at a point where you can use some of the strategies that we teach you. They're just like I said, like, once they get at a certain level. It's really hard to get them calm down. And that's that happen sometimes for And you know, the parent just needs to stay calm and let the child Oh, I'm I'm here for you. It's gonna be okay. But what I often have parents start doing is you don't talk to me like that. Don't say that. Don't do that. That is useless. At that point, it's useless. But learning to notice, like really, really subtle cues that's like the prevention and the proactive is giving attention as much. Now I know we talked about earlier that the kids could be wanting attention all of the time. But there are times when you can give very focused attention. And even if it's 10 minutes in the morning 10 minutes after school, 10 minutes at night, that very focused wanna one attention when nothing else is distracting, you can really almost, I say, inoculate the kid so that they don't do this like Paula you and Constant in all the time. I think some parents they get into a mode where they almost won the Children act like that super strong attention seeking they almost getting a mode where they don't want to interact with them at all.

spk_0:   28:01
Yeah, because what you really want to do is get some space. Um, yeah, yes.

spk_1:   28:05
And so then it Do you see that? How? Because a vicious cycle. Yeah, like I need more attention than the average child. And I get less attention than the average help. So a lot of times, it's working with parents like, what can you d'oh Like I said, maybe we start out with 10. 10. You would be surprised. Or maybe not. Don you, you talkto last people and you have kids yourself. You know, sometimes I'll make a list throughout the day. Let's talk about how much like quality time, like, really, if they're young Children playing with them. You know, if they're older teens just chatting about whatever, getting them their favorite snack, let's talk about let's go through your whole day and see where that happens. Um, it will be like or how many minutes that happens and it will be zero. It'll be, You know, we get up in the morning and then we have to do this and then we have this and then we have to get off school and then we have this and then after school, we have this

spk_0:   29:00
thing that

spk_1:   29:00
we have to fight about. How are you?

spk_0:   29:02
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

spk_1:   29:04
And so, like, I'll show that to parents to say, You know, if we're trying to develop a close relations, you know what? We're trying to develop a relationship with a child. And if we're trying, Bruce Perry talks about you don't know his work. Anyone listening, you need to look it up. He's wonderful in terms of trauma. Relational experiences are what hell trauma. So if we're just having, like, negative experiences or even neutral ones, like teach your breakfast, Okay, that's okay. But that's not this, like, really focused attention that I'm talking about.

spk_0:   29:41
Uh huh.

spk_1:   29:42
The appearance will be surprised. I'll say, How are you gonna hail trauma and develop a attachment when there's like, like no time together and saying this in a gentle way? I know it's hard, any life is busy, and I don't need to say this in a blaming way, but just logically, if there's no time that we see and in positive relational interaction, how could we be doing this? And in the

spk_0:   30:07
business of life, and particularly, you know, in the business of what we're almost programmed to think is good parenting now on Monday, their stance on Tuesday, their soccer on Wednesday. There's taekwondo. On Thursday, there is to do, and then we throw in. There's occupational therapy. There's there's emotional therapy. There's appointments here, appointments there. One of the things we hear all the time is that parents are just They're run ragged, going from here to there and doing the things that they think they're supposed to be doing to provide for these Children. But the positive relational experiences require us to kind of slow down. They dio. And that's hard to do. Yeah, yeah,

spk_1:   30:51
yes, that's exactly right. It is. And it has to be intentional. That's why I talk about the 10 10 10 or you know, um, tell me this.

spk_0:   31:00
What did you mean by the Tin Tinton?

spk_1:   31:02
Yeah, 10 minutes in the morning before school weather. If you spent with your child while they're waking up and broke their back and welcome them to the dead, I tell you, tell them that you love them something. 10 minutes after school, 10 minutes, one on one before it's like you know, hitting the homework or hitting the less ends or whatever. You were gonna sit. I'm gonna get a snack. I'm gonna be here. We're gonna talk. We're gonna connect. You know, I'm gonna rub your back. A lot of families I work with, there's a lack of physical affection. And I will say that also, which is critical

spk_0:   31:35
in terms

spk_1:   31:35
of the body calming down and then 10 minutes at night with a little special bet. You know, a lot of parents have the read the stories or and talk, and, you know, something like that. So something that there's these, like, touch coins left 30 minutes a day is too much. We'll start out with five. If there could just be five minutes of really focused attention, I do a lot of work using Thera plight. So taut sometimes those are times when parents will do fairplay activities which are really engaging, playful activities. Something like that is what I mean by that.

spk_0:   32:08
Okay, that makes good sense. All right. I want to tell you about a couple of our partners. Our partners are those agencies who believe in our mission to providing unbiased, accurate information pre adoption and posted option and free Foster and Post Foster. One of our wonderful partners is Children's connection there. An adoption agency providing service is for domestic infinite option, an embryo adoption. And they also could provide home studies that post adoption support Two families in Texas and we have, ah, hopscotch adoptions. They are a hey accredited international adoption agency. This is my favorite part. Their announcement. I love reading off all their countries. It's it's it's melodic to me, They're Hagar credited International Adoption Agency placing Children Armenia, Bulgaria, Croatia, Georgia, Chiana, Chiana, Morocco, Pakistan, Serbia, Ukraine and they do kinship adoptions from a whole host of other countries as well, and we thank them for their support. All right now we're coming to the where the rubber meets the road. For a lot of parents, we get so many questions. So we know our child has experienced trauma or we suspect that our child has experienced trauma and yet we also need to discipline this trial. At the heart of discipline is training and education. But oftentimes these kids are hard to parent and they are challenging, Let us say, and so parents are struggling because they need to institute some forms of control that the child is often behaving and out of control ways. And yet we're constantly telling them about. We want you to be intentional with your attention, where you need to be focusing on attachment. You need to be creating positive experiences between you and the child, and all of that's true and all of that's good. But it's also hard because the child is tantra. Bigger is, is out of control or is doing anti social things. So that's all, by way of introduction of how do we discipline Children who have expert experienced trauma in a way that will not cause them more trauma, and that will impact their relationship with such in sexual way that we can provide support and a place for them to come back to?

spk_1:   34:26
Well, I think that, you know, we could sum up sama. What we were talking about until now is connection before correction. So what can happen is parents start. They are doing lots and lots of discipline, but they're not harming positive experiences. And so let me give you some examples of what positive experiences would be because the first thing for people to understand is this idea of a relationship account, and you have to be depositing positive so that when you make a withdrawal so withdrawn and account is, you have to go to bed now. And that's the last TV show or which are always. Now it's time to get down to business and do your homework. Okay, those air withdrawals, those are things that the child isn't like. If you don't have to pauses of positive experiences in that account, it's gonna be a lot less likely that the child is gonna cooperate with that. So that's why I like I'm emphasizing all of this. And so positive is choices. Lots of choices, but not choices. You know, this is where I see people going too extreme. They become too rigid or they become too unstructured and the home is chaos. Ah, choice for a young child is, Do you want a blue cup or a red cup? Ah, choice for an older child is Do you want to start your tour before your homework or after homework? You want to get it out of the way or do you want? There are all kinds of choices sharing power, which is that have been in the home situation where they had no power and where the mercy of people and and being hard, you have got to share power. So you cannot. There's got to be some room for compromise. There's gotta be some way, is not my way or the highway. And this is what I see either going to overly rigid or too unstructured. So that's like the first thing you know. And third play. We talk about a balance of structure and nurture. He and I'm all in their church and just the whole A safe hairstyle. And things were just out of control. You have, or you can be running a boot camp. And both of these are also related to the parents own history offer. And, you know, I don't know that that will be something that we have time to talk about. But the van point is, you have to make deposits so that when you have to make it withdrawal, there's something to withdrawal from. You have toe have some kind of Canada. If a child is not connected to you, they're not gonna obey you. Yeah, You know, people think that obedience. You know, they can be like this hard line and making the kid do something by being really strict. A scary um, that's fear. They're obeying out of fear, not because they're connected to you. I want you know, your mom wants this. So I want to do this because my relationship with Mom matters. So So there's those two things. What I see often Thio when you're asking many in that Now you're gonna think this is ridiculous, Dawn. But I really like a lot of in homework with families that I have a special program that we have to prevent residential treatment. So we're going in homes where things were really out of control and I think it out of home placements. We'll ask the kids. We always asked the kids, What are the rules here? Nine times out of 10 they'll say we don't have any, Huh? So, you know, one of the first things that we have to talk with parents up. You know what kind of language is allowed here? And you know what we have to say. Violence is off limits. Nobody can hit anybody, and we need to have a plan in place of what to do then. But we'll go into these homes and there will be rules. And we will help parents set some rules and not a lot of rules. I'm typing like no violence. Speak to each other with respect. Maybe don't take what's not yours. We usually have the kids join in on. The kids will know what the rules should be. They'll just say there aren't rules on them here. And the parents it's late. We'll know it's true. We don't really have rules. We've kind of just giving up. So the first thing is you have to establish some rules and then you have to be consistent and structured enforcing those rules. So, you know, one of your examples on here was a four year old grabbing toys away hitting tantrum ing. You've got areas, say, Oh, no, we're not. Allowing that you're gonna have a time in is what we often recommend as a first thing tied in a knot. Time out. And you have to stay here with Mom, your daddy for a start number of minutes. So I would say, you know, we have tohave some rules. That's the first

spk_0:   39:03
the first thing is rules. And then for violations of the rules, it will be tied in.

spk_1:   39:09
Yeah, time in. You know, for an older kid, it might be like some kind of loss of privilege or something like that. You know, Paris. Well, say, Well, how come here and say, Well, they won't give us their phone unless we, like, wrestle it away from their on their phone Too much. Well, you know, you tell the kid, give us the phone. You know, you're not gonna give us the phone, okay? We're cutting off phone service. Me. It's almost like parents become it. I mean, that's a drastic thing to do, Don, but once you do it, you don't have to do it again.

spk_0:   39:45
Uh huh.

spk_1:   39:46
So sometimes when we're in situations where things were really out of control, we have to kind of do something drastic, like, once or twice, And then the kid knows. Okay, you know, phones are off it e. And if I want it, have phone service. E. I have given it eight. So we work with parents on establishing the rules and what are consequences and being consistent. And, you know, it's like, Oh, Well, that sounds like just general parenting. And I guess, in a way, some of it is. But in a way, it seems like a lot of the falls by the what happens is parents start to feel like victims of these Children. Yes, and they no longer, like, had any authority and structure. And they're shrinking and they're shrinking. And they're shrinking, which I understand. I mean, these kids can be a some of them aggressive and violent, but this then becomes like a vicious cycle. So we really have to help parents, like, get back in charge. What do you feel like? You're a victim of your child is just gonna get worse. Like you need to get outside support or outside help. And so people will say, Well, they let will come in and start doing some work, and they'll say why? They seem like they like you and we'll say better than me or, you know, whatever will say No. They feel safe with us. Uh, is we set structure and we mean what we say and we follow through with it. And so I think that balance structure provides safety.

spk_0:   41:24
All right, let's start with this go. The scenario of the four year old? Yes. All right. So the first thing is to build up your relationship bank, you're going to want to make sudden that

spk_1:   41:37
poor girl. That is so easy. You can put out to acceptable outfits that could Outside. What do you wanna wear to preschool? Because they'll pick a swimsuit. You don't do that. But you can pick things, you know. Except so there's so many simple things for a kid that age just to interject that.

spk_0:   41:53
Yeah. And bedtime routines are easier for that age and things like that, which are okay, so then you set up some simple rules asked before you take a toy. Um, no hitting. I think of some other simple rules that you would have for a um no, using bad language or whatever. And so the child is not used to these and then violates the rule, grabs a toy, says a curse word, hits a kid or hit you. Then you're suggesting time in describe what that time and would look like.

spk_1:   42:27
So let me just say one more thing before time, man. I first want to say another thing that we always talked about his feet in the water, the Children every two hours. So what I mean by that is they should have nutritious snacks. They should have hydration it, stay a child, have sensory issues and really likes to. True, I would be having a chewy necklace. So I am wanting this kid in general and life to be in a good space because that's also a thing that leads to behavior problems. So that's assumed the child hasn't allowed this child to get thirsty or hungry. These things happen. A lot was neglected kids because they're not in touch with thirst and appetite. So they have to be offered things, and it has to be physically put in front of them. Because if you say, Do you want this those they know? So you want to, like, first know that before you would be thinking. Are they hungry? Are they thirsty? Have they had enough movement? All of these other things you have to think first. Okay, so say you're kind of working as a parent on being aware of all of that, but still, because that's gonna eliminate 50% of these problems. That leak that

spk_0:   43:32
goes back to the idea of prevention of being proactive.

spk_1:   43:35
So let's say how you're doing on a ladder. You can have a bad day and you couldn't remember all out of whatever. And so then I would say, Okay, no hitting. You're going to sit with Mama for a couple minutes, and I would do a time

spk_0:   43:48
during the time in. Are you paying attention to the child or you're just sitting and you're doing? You're reading the paper. You're

spk_1:   43:55
Yes, I think so. If it's a child that will sit beside you without running away, you know, I I would just be doing whatever. You have to sit here. Ah, lot of the kids that we work with, you have to hold them in on. And so you know, then if it's that level, I would probably if they're screaming and kicking. And whatever I say, I know it's hard. You don't like sitting here. This is frustrating you, you know it won't be that much longer, and I would stay really calm. And here's what else you're doing there. When you're saying that Dong, you're staying calm, you're saying those things. You're also working on this child learning to know their emotional states. Thank you. Some words for it. Okay, so Oh, okay. This is what upset is. Oh, okay. I am kicking my feet and you're doing a narrative of that. That's what we do with babies when they're little. This running commentary. Oh, you like that? Oh, you didn't like that. Okay, so you do that that commentary it as calm as you can, because now you're also working on helping a child regulate and recognize emotional states. And so then you let them go back and try again, and then, you know, if they whatever if they keep, you know, say it's Ah, it's a toy. That a key, you know, doing something wrong with this. Like, you know what? Yeah, we're not gonna have this toy today. This toy is just not working for you today. And we're not like you're so naughty. You can't have your toy. We're having the attitude For whatever reason, this toys, this is you're not saying all this, but this You're taking responsibility. I'm giving them a toy that's not working for them today. It's over stimulating them. It's whatever. So I, as a parent need to take responsibility and realize that was too much for them. And so or we're not going to go to the Children's museum today because I can tell. That's just not gonna be a good place for you today. So it's not like you're so bad now. You don't get to go to the Children's Museum. Yeah, you're coming in and recognizing because this is showing the child My mom, There's what I can handle My mom. There's what I need. My mom is. There is take care of me and the Children's names here. That's too much for you today. We're not gonna do that today. So that's the other thing I want to say, Don. The consequences are not done and a punitive way. We want the attitude. This is a little too much for you in your body, and it's my job as a grown up to change the scenario around here a little bit. Yeah, that's really different.

spk_0:   46:32
Yeah, I absolutely do, because there's one that it's making it. We can imagine how the child is feeling. They still don't get to go to the Children's Museum either way, but one it's like, ha ha, you don't get to go because you misbehave, then the other one is. We'll try again some other time. But this is not happening today. It gets complicated and it takes some creativity for parents if they have other Children, because we will often hear that they say, Yeah, but then nobody went to the Children's Museum and everybody else was behaving and really looking forward to it. And that does take some challenge from the parenting standpoint because you know that this child is potentially going to not be able to go so planning in advance so that you plan the Children's museum. If your partner do your partner is, uh is home, right? It's the child. Or that you've got somebody lined up that you can call and yeah, stay so that you it takes some that goes back to the being proactive because if you know a child is potentially going to struggle, set them up in advance so that you know that not everybody has toe set him up for advanced for for success, or let me give you another example. Four year olds are in a way easy for us because we can physically cuddle. We can physically hold if a child this tantrum anger won't sit next to us or whatever. But let's taken older child. Let's say a 13 year old, Let's take a 13 year old boy and he's a man. He has trouble controlling his emotions, and when he gets mad, he hits out, and in this case he puts a hole in the wall, you know, kicks it, our punches it with his hand and he puts a hole in the wall. Now you would start by saying Have rules which say, We don't hit, we don't We don't put holes in the wall. We don't hit people we don't. So that would be your rule to begin with. But when a child has an end, the other thing that we would start with, I'm sure stealing your punch lines here is to be proactive and try to prevent. Try to acknowledge. Okay, this kid is come home. He's he is tense. He's had a bad day, is giving all the signals of getting ready to blow if you've got those and then usually they are there and hopefully you've noticed them. But sometimes you don't, and we're gonna make sure that this child has has been, uh, has his physical needs taken care of. He's he's not hungry, and he's not thirsty. And he still blows. For whatever reason, maybe you missed some of the signals. Or maybe you're just tired. You know, you're busy, you've got two other kids and, you know, and you've also had a bad day. All right, so the kids explodes, he punches a hole in the wall, and you've got to do something. At this point, there's a hole in the wall. The kid is out of control, though. Thoughts. Okay, What would you do in night? That type of scenario? Walk us through

spk_1:   49:17
S O. I mean, I think in that moment, like the punching of the the holes in the wall or whatever, I would you know, if you're there, if you're president. First of all, the first thing I would say it's a lot better than punch you.

spk_0:   49:30
Yeah, I thought about that. You might say Well, I'm glad you aim for the wall

spk_1:   49:34
now. I'm not I'm not even saying they wouldn't necessarily say that to him, But I do want parents to know that's a level of control. Because sometimes I also have to talk about parents disappearance about things like that. Like it could have been you and it was a wall. So that's progress for what we were dealing with before. And so I would probably say some things, like, you know, right there. Right? And I mean, what if on their you know, wow, you are upset. Like I feel like, Yeah, I must have missed something. You know that you are really struggling. You are having a hard time. What can we do for you right now? What do you need? Um and you know, like, terms of the kids at up said they can't say so. I'll say, you know, do you want me to sit here with you, or should I leave you alone for a while? They can sometimes pick from that. You know, we've had kids at Chata. They'll say, Who do you want us to go in the room and be with you? Or do you want us to Not Well. How long have you don't come in that you talk to me through the door?

spk_0:   50:39
That would work.

spk_1:   50:40
So a lot of times, if you offer even choices, then rather than go to your room right now for doing that. You know you're not supposed to do that. The first thing you never think of this kidneys help. Yeah, Kid needs help. He doesn't need, like, lecturing. And he doesn't need you yelling because then the both the you're gonna escalating might put his other hand through the wool and another hole. So think of it that he needs how you could you could even say Could I get you a glass of water? I'll tell you, a lot of kids when they do something like this and they get a loving response there are so shocked that they immediately are just like, wow. Yeah. I mean, they

spk_0:   51:21
went out of your sails. If nothing else, when somebody doesn't respond,

spk_1:   51:25
Yeah, yeah. If you were out

spk_0:   51:26
of control and somebody is not coming back to you out of control, yes, that's the self regulation where you could

spk_1:   51:32
Yes, yeah, yes, because there's this thing called mirror neurons where our neurons are going back and forth for each other. So his mirror neurons of anger coming off, it's gonna be very easy for you to become angry. Especially if you have something. Maybe you had a father that punched stuff. Okay, Something like this where you're gonna just really get activated. So I'm being calm like that, you know, later when things were more calm. Not that don't use a lot of words and offer support that later we hang her back and say, Hey, buddy, we gotta talk about first. Let's talk about what upset you so much and like, you know how we could help you with that. We're also gonna talk about the wall like weather. We're gonna fix it, or you're gonna We're gonna find someone to fix that with some of your allowance or what's gonna happen. So you want to do something about the wall you want to talk about? You know, what led to that mistake most parents make is they try to do it in that moment and in an angry way. And so then that draws the whole thing out. Like you said even further now were angered for the whole night, You know, now we're still angry in the morning. Where is if you can respond with support? Something like that. You know, you need a glass of water, but only because the water Just going for me. Okay? Let me know when you're ready to talk because I'm here and do get away. That's the other thing. Parents will, like push before the child's ready, and then they get hit or something. And I want to say he said I'd get away now with a little one. It's different if you can safely contain a little one. Then I do recommend that. But with big kiss, I can, you know, kick your butt for such. You got it When they say back off, you need to back off, you know,

spk_0:   53:25
because they're trying to give you at that point. Yeah, that's it. I'm out of control.

spk_1:   53:31
You know what we want to say? What? We also talk about his Use your words that is using your words saying, Get away. I'm ready to blow. You need to honor that at that point. You again? Not only parents, often teachers don't honor, huh? Kid gets kicked out of school for a violent incident. And I say you know what happened? And they say he said, Get away from me. So we all surrounded him. Yeah, and he completely blew. He's in fight flight freeze. He's gonna fight. So what I'm saying they're, you know, offering support. Staying calm, looping back to try to figure out what was going on. The rule was broken. We're gonna have to do something about that. The consequence need. Here's what Here's nothing consequences to match the hole in the wall. We gotta figure out a way to repair the hole in the wall whether dies a handyman and your help with it, whether you have to hey, part of the cost of the guy, come in and join the drywall. People say there's a hole in the wall so he can't go to the dance. I'm like That doesn't kidnap you. Yeah, there's something to be said for a natural, logical consequences. There's a hole in Iowa, so I'm gonna make them scrub the kitchen floor. You know, that doesn't connect

spk_0:   54:45
S.

spk_1:   54:45
So I think that's another important thing. And having

spk_0:   54:49
well, it might connect only in the sense. If, Okay, I'm going to repair the hole in the wall because I want the wall to be reared correctly. But I was going to clean the kitchen floor today, so I'm going to prepare the wall and you're gonna do my

spk_1:   55:03
job with that cookie that could work so that that could work. It's just that I see a lot of parents, like having like the kid did this. So I did that. And there's not anything about that. Consequence is gonna help with this situation. If not helping with the repair the while, maybe they can do it next time themselves. I mean, it's okay before

spk_0:   55:28
they could get a summer job doing sheet rock. So I mean, either one, you just There's always that possibility as well,

spk_1:   55:34
you know? And I think it's

spk_0:   55:35
also important coming to our end here to say that it takes time. The damage, our Children, the trauma our Children have experienced happened over time. And I hear parents who they've had kids for six months in their home and their they and they're expecting the child to be a totally different person. And that's that's just it took a long took more than six months for this child to be damaged, and it's going to take more than six months for this child to be healed.

spk_1:   56:04
Yeah, I think you know, I try to use different analogies with parents. We talked about this a lot in our new book, but I think it is like if there's a bicycle path in the woods or something and you're riding on that half when you try to take your bicycle out of it with hard stuck in that path. And even if you get your bike beside the trail, often it goes Boo Kabul and good is back in the past, and I talked to parents about That's like nerve pathways in the brain when you over and over and over have resorted to aggression and screaming and yelling and kicking to deal with your emotions. Those are, well, Warner pathways in the brain, and it's just like, you know, that's where the bicycle goes and we're trying to, like, plot the bike out of the path and build different neural pathways. But they're weaker on there, not a strong yet, and they're gonna take time here. Another thing I often talk to parents about, especially, you know, when kids have had multiple. You know, a lot of these kids about 3456 2030 foster placement. Some of

spk_0:   57:09
them, I

spk_1:   57:10
say, you know, look at it this way. But we're a new family of we're safe and they're not in that situation anymore. Well, let's say you've been married and divorced 20 times. How likely are you gonna be? You really trust number 21. Very fast. Not very.

spk_0:   57:27
Yeah. And so give our kids space and grace and time because it's gonna take a little while. Well, thank you so much. Karen. Book Walter, I cannot recommend a book enough. It's raising the challenging child. How to minimize meltdowns, reduce conflict and increase cooperation. And let me remind everyone that the views expressed in this show are those of the guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of creating a family, our partners or underwriters. Also keep in mind that the information given in this interview is general advice. To understand how it applies to your specific situation, you need to work with your mental health professional or your adoption professional. And don't forget toe. Let your friends know about this podcast and recommend it to them. If they're interested in the areas of adoption, our foster care, we would really appreciate how you spreading the word. Thank you so much. And I will see you next week.