Are you the right family to consider transracial adoption? How do you know if you could successfully raise a child of a different race? We talk with Dr. Gina Samuels, a Professor at University of Chicago, School of Social Service Administration, affiliated with the Center of Race, Politics, and Culture, and a long time researcher on transracial adoption, and an adult transracial adoptee.
Please leave us a rating or review RateThisPodcast.com/creatingafamily
Are you the right family to consider transracial adoption? How do you know if you could successfully raise a child of a different race? We talk with Dr. Gina Samuels, a Professor at University of Chicago, School of Social Service Administration, affiliated with the Center of Race, Politics, and Culture, and a long time researcher on transracial adoption, and an adult transracial adoptee.
Please leave us a rating or review RateThisPodcast.com/creatingafamily
* Note that this is an automatic transcription, please forgive the errors.
Speaker 2:Today we'll be talking about should you adopt a child of a different race or ethnicity with Dr Gina Samuels. Dr Samuels is a professor at the University of Chicago school of social service administration, and she is affiliated with the center of race, politics and culture. She has some groundbreaking research that was published in the journal of family and marriage, titled being raised by white people, navigating racial differences among multiracial adopted adults. And, and as an, in addition to all this, she's also lived this experience personally because she herself is an adult. She was an adult who was transracially adopted. Welcome back to creating a family Dr. Samuels.
Speaker 3:Thank you. Thank you. Happy to be here.
Speaker 2:All right. Um, it always helps to be in at the beginning. So let's start off by why should anybody think about adopting across racial lines? I mean, why even, why bring that upon yourself and, and, and why be thinking about it at all?
Speaker 3:I think that's a good question. Every to just even ask themselves first of why, why might that be an option? For whom? Is that an option? Um, part, part of the reason why it's an option increasingly for people is because it does expand folks options in terms of children to adopt. And so while most people still remain within their own racial groups to marry and form families, and that's also true for adoption, that the world is becoming increasingly multi-racial, increasingly Brown. And so as that happens, I think increasing numbers of people are considering maybe, maybe I could do this, maybe this is possible for, for me, for my family.
Speaker 2:I think we also see, um, transracial adoption in the, in the media. Um, and, and so we are seeing mirrors in the world of families that do not match. So I think that makes it easier for people to consider. But it also could be a danger in the sense that, that people see it and, and not realize the complexities are, am I overthinking this?
Speaker 3:No, I think that's right. So I certainly with every, with every game comes a loss and with every risk comes a comes an opportunity. And so I think the good side of that is yes, there are many more mirrors and reflections of multi-racial reality TV shows. Like this is us or people who are famous or in the public eye standing up and you visually see their family and everybody doesn't match by race. And that, um, normalizes us, normalizes our families and helps people to see that we exist. We're out there, um, in lots of different combinations and so it normalizes it. But at the same time, what you don't see when you see those quick images, um, our, some of the challenges and are some of the things that still make it, um, different, um, and the challenge for certain families or certain young people to be growing up, multi-racial or in multi-racial. And so I think coupled with that increased visibility needs to be, um, increased awareness about how to make sure that it is what it seems to be on TV, right?
Speaker 2:It's portrayed and, and that, and that you're the right family to think about it.
Speaker 3:You're the right person to be able to make that happen.
Speaker 2:Right. That to do it. Now that you know, you just get past the cool factor, so to speak. Yes. Um, so when we think in terms of trans racial adoption, most often what comes to mind is white families adopting black kids. But I think it is much broader than that. And I, uh, so I want to expand. I have asked you to expand on, on what is the transracial adoption beyond just white parents and black kids?
Speaker 3:Sure. Well, it's, it's true that even today it continues to be dominated by a population of family types where you have at least one white parent with kids of color. And so that continues to be the dominant sort of subpopulation within transracial adoption. But certainly in, especially, I'm from pathways in foster care, children are being placed with families where the parent or parents are of color. Um, and the children are of a different race of either color or even white. And so even though that's a, a minority, um, contexts in which children are experiencing parents who don't share a racial identity, it's certainly not true that that doesn't happen or that only trans racial adoptive families, uh, involve adult parents who are white. And then children who are of color just as transracial adoptive families don't involve kids who all match themselves. And so pleasingly there are families where even if the parents are white or regardless of the race of the parent, the children could be from different countries, different racial ethnic groups and cultural backgrounds also mixes between biologically birth children in the family and then children who enter through adoption. So, um, as we kind of unpack what is transracial adoption, we have to remember that it does represent an incredible multiplicity of combinations, instructors and racial ethnic groups and sexual identities and marital statuses and all sorts of, um, layers of diversity.
Speaker 2:Okay. Very. Yeah. And also just to state the obvious, although I say that and yet I think that a lot of times people don't perceive this, but trans racial would also include, um, non-Asians adopting Asian children, be it here in the U S which is not real common, but it is very common. And in international adoption or adopting Latino children, um, non, uh, non Latino parents adopting Latino children. Um, something that always bothers me a bit, but I think it comes up pretty regularly in that is parents saying that they are open to adopting a mixed race child versus a child that is fully Hispanic or fully African-American. And, and um, I, I know why I think it bothers me, but uh, let me ask you first, is that okay
Speaker 3:problem for you? Well, yeah, as a mixed race person, it's sort of interesting. I think, you know, my, when I feel in a snarky mood I'll say, well, wow, do you think that I experienced half racism that you're like, what are you anticipating? Like what exactly does that mean? So I think when people, when people say things like that or I've also heard people say, well, we're going to adopt an Asian child because we don't want to walk around as a mixed race family and have black people be angry at us or native American families be angry at us because we stole a child. And I thought, Oh, Asian people won't feel this way when they see you with a child that looks like them. And so I think what that, what that really conveys is what that person is telling you. Is there a theories about race and other theories about family and about the kinds of appearances and racial heritage is that they believe either they can connect with most and they'll be able to connect with a child that's part white better or that children who are, um, later skin won't really experience racism. And there's all sorts of research to suggest that that's not true. And in some contexts, children of mixed race experience more discrimination, um, than their myo racial identified, um, here. So
Speaker 2:I wasn't aware of that. Research I want to ask is, I think you're spot on. I think that if we unpack it and dig a little deeper with people when they're saying that, I do think that on some level, many people believe that a child who is mixed race will be easier to, uh, acculturate or easier to bring into a white family. And, and conversely, easier for white parents to parent. I'm fascinated by the, the, and I know that you actually[inaudible] I didn't read off some of the, all those titles, but I also know that you do research in the area of multicultural identity and, and mixed race identity. So that's interesting to me. So there is so a mixed race person, is it because they would be finding, um, discrimination in both areas that, that they're not black enough for? The blacks are white enough for the whites are,
Speaker 3:right, right. But it's, um, it's new. It's new ish research. And so it's unclear exactly what, when young people are asked in a survey, do you experience racism? And they'd Mark, yes. Oftentimes the followup questions still don't unpack the context of that experience. From whom is it? What is it that they're being discriminated. Um, uh, by and against. Um, but I think the, the sort of theorizing around what's happening is that, you know, when you are a person of color, um, you experienced racism and so most multiracial people, um, still have complexions that put them in the camp of not white. And the way that we have constructed race here is the only way that you access white privilege to not get discriminated against based on your skin is to have white appearance. And certainly some mixed race children do have white appearance but most don't. And so they experience racism just like anybody else would. But then yes, on top of that, they also experience, um, discrimination specific to being mixed race from both white people and people of color. And Oh, there's this whole extra venue of uh, racial epithets and um, attention that people get because of their racial ambiguity, which also adds them, increases the opportunities that young people might experience discrimination based on race. There's also research that suggests that kids who are mixed race, people that are mixed race over the course of their lifetime have the highest rates of sexual violence against them. For both boys and girls, um, that, uh, percentages are as high as 30% Y from, well again, we don't ask enough information about, but Gina, I want you to ask that question. I'm going to just provide some like, you know, theories about why that would be. Um, you know, in our society, in our history, we have a long history of sexualized thing exotifying multi-racial reality by things like, Oh, mixed race. Um, people are so pretty are so patrons or, um, that, that being mixed races sexually exotic, you know, and I think in some ways, well some people even who are mixed race, think of this as a compliment. Um, it can create a broader ecology that, um, causes people to see them as sexual victims and objects in a way that put them in increased risks. That's just my theory that that's not, Oh yes, I understand that anyone has proven to be true. But certainly if you look at the ways in which, um, light-skin women in particular are portrayed in particularly black women who are light skinned or portrayed in movies, you know, you have the tragic mulatto, but then you also have this kind of sexually vulnerable, promiscuous figure that oftentimes features on the screen. And that feeds into how broader America thinks about, um, thinks about people who embody that status. Yeah. And you know, I'm, and um, and I think there are something similar, uh, with, uh, Asian women as well being sexualized are, you know, eh, with the added, uh, part of being passively sexually. So we have all of these, all of these ideas about race that then impeded these sort of natural characteristics that we think come with that. And that causes people to say things like, I think I want to adopt a biracial kid walking it. You know, or I want to adopt an Asian kid cause they're not gonna really experience racism or I don't want to adopt this other kid cause they really are going to experience racism. And so I think part of the message here of back to your question, why consider a transracial doctor is it for you, it requires some personal unpacking about well what are your assumptions about different groups of people? Um, and what, what naturally attracts you to adopting? Even if you say yes to transracial adoption broadly, once you peel off that layer, there's usually another conversation about yeah, about which, what groups are the ideal ones that you would want to consider. And in there I think lie the more juicy conversations about, huh? Why, why is that? Why, why are you thinking that? What are your assumptions that make this feel less scary to do? Yeah. So two terms that we hear for own around are transracial and transcultural. What is the difference between the two or is there, so there's a big difference between the two and sometimes people are both and sometimes one. Um, so racial really refers to this idea of people being a different race. Um, so the difference being race being a social construct, so not something necessarily that it's biologically real, but it's definitely socially real. And so we sort people into these different racial categories based on how they look. So somebody who is let's say, um, identifies as Mexican adopting a child who identifies as black, that would be mixed race, but it could also be, um, cross-cultural, um, depending the culture is something that we learned. And so babies don't come with a culture. They learn it. They come from a cultural heritage. Um, their biological parents would have a culture, but it, because we're tricky when we talk about culture because you could potentially adopt a child who is within your own racial group, who looks like you racially. But, um, their parentage and heritage comes from someplace else. Let's say for example, a common one, um, in the U S are white couples are white people who I thought from Russia, um, or other Eastern nations where they are adopting a child who's white. But it really is a transnational adoption. And that child, if they're an infant doesn't come with a culture. So, um, but they do certainly come with a cultural heritage. You know, you could go, I would argue a top within race and it could still be cross cultural, let's say. Um, if I as a person who's African American adopts a black child from Haiti, that child, um, we share a race, but we do not share a national or a cultural heritage. And if I were to adopt that child at age 15, they would be coming with that cultural heritage. And so that would be something, um, including replete with pretend potentially language differences, cultural differences, many others. And so I do think a lot of times we use these things as synonyms, but they really, our culture is really different than ethnicity is really different than is, is race. And sometimes they are all operating within a family across different than other times. There's just maybe one dimension that's different in the adoption process. And I guess bottom line for people are considering
Speaker 2:adopting a child of a different race or ethnicity with they need to do is get some thoughts to the distinctions between the two, um, and each bring their own issues. So what does it take, and this is a very general question, but what does it take in general to be able to raise a child to have a healthy self and racial identity and, and, and do those two differ, they're how you, your self identity and your racial identity?
Speaker 3:Yeah. Um, I think they're, they're interwoven for all of us. All of our identities. You know, your gender identity, your class identity, your family identities as a mother, a spouse, a sister, a daughter, a, you know, like all of those things are distinct, but they also live within you at the same time[inaudible] lap and overlap and change at different times. And we might be really far along and thinking about one of them and not really far along and thinking about another. And then something happens in life and we're presented with this opportunity there to grow the identity a little bit more. So I think, you know, some of the things that I often am surprised that parents don't think about, but, um, haven't gotten on very far on, sometimes with a adoption. And I think this is true for any kind of, um, adoption, but dealing with just sort of your own stuff about what brings you to adoption in the first place and being really brutally honest about that. You know, some folks come to adoption from a pathway of loss and fertility issues. Some people come to adoption from a place of um, deciding that they want to have children even though they're partnering hasn't played out the way they imagined, but they really still want to be a parent and they're going to go ahead and do that without waiting for some conventional order of life to happen. Um, and so to really get clear and honest about, you know, what, what really did bring you to this, because I think a lot of those issues come back up. Um, I would argue across the parenting life course for anyone but also can get, can come back up in terms of how we think about transracial adoption and having your adoption be very so, uh, public to everyone and not being able to pass that off and not thinking through some of these questions that will come from family and friends and complete strangers about how your family all got together. And if you haven't done some of that thinking to get to a place where you're completely okay with it, then I think a lot of times parents own anxieties or embarrassment or uncertainty or sadness or whatever the emotions are around those issues sort of come out in how parents answer and navigate those things. And then when you have a child involved, the child picks up on that. Um, and often times will interpret that as about them when it's often not about them. But kids oftentimes will do that and pro to, to really be clear about all of it. Why transracial adoption adoption, how'd you get here? Because if for no other reason, at some point your kid is going to ask you the further you are in, in unpacking that for yourself and finding answers that are both honest but um, both in a, in a more healed space, um, the better off the better off we'll be. I think. Um, I think the other really important thing, um, is that this will simultaneously matter and not be a big deal. Your, you know, your family will both be just like every other family and be totally different and holding those two things rather than tipping too far in either of those directions I think is a really hard[inaudible] um, to, to do. But oftentimes for parents who are able to strike that balance in their families, um, that has been whole space to hold both just the everyday. Like we really are just a family. We argue about the same things. I'm confused about the same things as a parent. My kid is doing the same weird things that other kids are doing. And yet we have this other difference that also really matters, um, for, for us and for our ability to be a healthy family. And both of those things are true
Speaker 2:and, and told and held them in balance so that you don't let one override override the other and that that leads to, we don't see it as much or hear it as much now as we used to. Uh, and we could probably both theorize as to why that is, but there is still a, with, for people who are very new to the idea of transracial adoption, there are some[inaudible] some families who at least on some level are thinking, I don't need to raise my child with a racial identity. I need to raise my child pan racial, you know, I want them to be a, uh, again, we don't hear this quite so much, but a citizen of the world as citizens and you know, a member of our family. So why is racial identity important?
Speaker 3:Because it will be important for everybody else outside your family. Even if you think it's not important for you. And I, and I would argue it is important. And so that's sort of a way I think when people say that to me, I think of that as this is a way that you are coping with conflict in a very avoidant and a very power evasive way. It ignores, um, things that are still very dominant in our society, like white supremacy, racism, all the other things. And in order for you to be a citizen of the world, usually that requires you to know who you, who you are in that context. And so for kids to really get to a space where they feel comfortable and grounded and can engage other people for who they are, they have to know who they are. And being, um, clear about how they, they understand the meaning of their racial heritage is, is part of that. Um, and it's not that you have to do it in a way or tell your kid how to identify, but exposing them, um, to opportunities to learn about who they are racially to have answers about, you know, why do you, why is your parent this reason your, this other race. Um, if they don't have answers for that, those sort of little things become bullets in their self esteem and they are not going to be able to be citizens of the world because the world is going to be a really hostile place and they won't be able to navigate that. And so race or that race and developing a race identity and have, having abilities to think about who one is isn't in terms of their race requires more conversations,
Speaker 2:not less. Yeah, exactly. And when I hear people say that, I think the easiest answer is your child will have a racial identity. You can have a racial identity and y'all don't recognize it is really white privilege just because you and I am white, but I live in a world and so I walk white. So I, and I live in a world that is mostly white and therefore I don't perceive my whiteness, but that is not the experience your child of color is going to have and your kid's gonna have a racial identity. So that's why you as a parent owe it to them. For them to have exposure, uh, to understand that what it means, you know, both the good, you know, why is it, why should I be as proud as I am to be black or to be Asian or to be, you know, Hispanic or Latino or whatever. Uh, exactly. So,
Speaker 3:yeah. So I get, yeah, and without that, you know, you're kind of putting your kid out there on they're on their own and not parenting for every other thing that you would protect your child against that you know, is real. And so just as, as you would protect your child for any of the other things that parents worry about every day, um, you can either not talk to them about that ever. And that's one way. And some parents do that. Yeah. But I guess what I'd be advocating is that, you know, kids have incredible competence more than we oftentimes give them credit for and they start paying attention to things they will. They will take cues, whether you directly talk about it or not, and your silence will be interpreted as shame. Your silence will create distance. Your silence will convey to a child that you can't handle hard conversations that are core to their life. And when kids decide that their parents can't handle something, they go somewhere else. And so wouldn't you want them to come to you to be able to talk to you about things that have happened? And that kind of goes back to my, please deal with your stuff. If you're somebody who is, you know, hasn't had a lot of experience talking about race from different perspectives besides your own, then that's really important. Identity work that parents need to do of any race the parent, all parents need to do in order then to shepherd their children and model to their children how to have these kinds of conversations as they happen out in, in real life. So they can be such a supportive family
Speaker 2:so that you can be fully the parent that you want to be to your child, which is a source of information and support and protection and all the things that we as parents want to do across the full spectrum of, of who our children are. So yes,
Speaker 4:this show is underwritten by the jockey being family foundation and they want to send out a shout out to all adoption agencies. They have a national backpack program. It is free to agencies and free to their families. All of the agency has to do is sign up. And this backpack program is part of their mission to provide post-adoption support. Now, yes, it does have an adorable little bear and ugly little blanket in there for the child. And the backpack is, uh, has embroidery initials of the child's initials embroidered on it and it's uh, it's really cute, but it also has a parent tote inside with lots of resources to help you be the type of parent you want to be and to address some of the issues that may come up and in post adoption. So go to their website, jockey being family.com and uh,
Speaker 2:sign up. It's free, it's easy and it's a great resource. All right, so some of the, uh, we, we've talked around it, so about whether you should consider it, what are some of the issues that parents who are just beginning to think about transracial adoption should think about to determine are they cut out for it? Are they a family that should have dropped across a racial or ethnic or cultural lines?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think one of the quickest, um, sort of scans their person can do is take survey of their own life and their own social circle and imagine what it would be like to be a little kid in that social circle who's a different race. And if your social circle, your daily life, your friends, everything about your world, um, is one race. So it could be white, but it could be something else. And you're going to be bringing a child into that, asking that child to single handedly integrate your entire world, your church, your community, your family, your social network is a lot. That's a lot to expect of a child to be able to do that across their life course with no, no automatic allies visual to them and then into their school. And so to do some thinking about if that's true, um, or it's sort of true, then what might need to change in your own life. Um, so that the kid that you're adopting isn't the first X whatever that is that you've known or met or are going to have, uh, a deep and meaningful relationship with. Um, and so I think that's one of the quickest ways that people can, can sort of just began to think about, Hmm, let me take a scan of my own life, not from my eyes, but from the perspective of somebody who's not my race and what it would be like to live every day within this world that I live in. And would it be a nurturing space as it currently is? Or are there things that I'm going to need to do? It doesn't mean that you have to automatically leave your job and move to someplace else or that you, um, I dunno, whatever the extreme things that people might be thinking as I'm, as I'm saying this do, but it does mean that you have to be willing to consider what are things that could be a moveable, what is my, you know, if you're a person of faith and you attend a church, how open would my church be? I remember when my family moved from Chicago to Oshkosh and one of the first things my mom did and checking out the church that we would attend is to go to the pastor and ask, you know, I have two black kids. How do you think your congregation is going to react and what will be your role in, in helping us to be a part of this church family? Um, and so taking that really seriously rather than just hoping that things are, that everybody's going to treat your child the way that they treat you. What are you going to do if your brother or your sister, um, is bigoted towards your own children? What would be your response? Are you willing to protect your child against your own family members? Would you want to even engage? How, how do you, how will you respond to it and how will you talk to your child and how would you navigate that over, over time? Um, what are the resources that exist in your community? Do you have people that you could talk to? Um, that will be honest with you about your thinking around this, um, with you? And if you don't have those kinds of friendships and supports, how do you develop them before you adopt so that you can really hear from somebody else's perspective what they think your strengths are and what your, um, opportunities for growth are and what might be really serious limitations. That might mean that you shouldn't, this isn't something for you.
Speaker 2:[inaudible] all right? Or it wouldn't be in the child's ultimate best interest, even though you might be open and willing. I'm not willing to make the changes. We're going to circle back to talk about the extended family, but I want to come back before and talk about, uh, uh, I like the terminology, look at the things in your life that are movable. And so let's talk about some of those, uh, your church. And, and I would argue this one step further and it's not just if you have this option and are granted, this is not always a, an option, but if you, it's not just whether your church is accepting and because many churches would be, are there people who racially mirror your child in your church. Um, so that's in addition to your church being. So another thing that is moveable is, are things like the businesses and the doctors and the service providers that you frequent. So, you know, do you have a, a, a, let's assume that your child is black, a black pediatrician are, and do you, do you, uh, use a black dry cleaner and, and go to a black owned, uh, um, I dunno. Convenience store or whatever when you have to stop. Um, so those are some, and those are those fall into the movable, easily movable. I mean, I guess anything's moveable, but, um, those are things that are, uh, ways to integrate your life. Um, and, and, and I liked what you said. Your child should not be the first person in your life of that race. Yeah. Um, so, uh, so looking at looking and seeing what would it be like to exist in your world as it is now, if you were of a different race. And then try to think of ways that you can diversify your, your current life. W one, you know, our society in some ways is becoming more, it's becoming easier in some ways for people to have friends, uh, that cross racial lines, close friends. And in other ways it feels like we're, we're pulling back from that. We're becoming more polarized. Um, and that's a, that's a whole nother issue. But, so how can people who say, okay, I think this is something I want to do and I don't have any really close friends that are black. And it feels weird for me to go up to, you know,
Speaker 3:black coat to person and say, Hey, I'm thinking of dropping a child from China. Will you be my friend or, yeah, exactly. I mean and it's just, it feels, you know, let's just because of this it feels right.
Speaker 2:Weird and awkward because it is. So, uh, let's talk about it. How do you diversify your friend set?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think at some point you just have to start. Um, you mean have that awkward moment of Hey you be my friend cause I need a black friend. I just, you know, I guess the first question is why are these folks not you already, your friend? Like why are you okay with adopting a child from China but you haven't been okay with doing lunch with your Chinese colleague? Like what is that really in you? Why have you not done that? So I think before you ever even like approached your car some day if you adopt from China or wherever it is that you're adopting from, that person is going to grow up to be the person that you haven't developed close relationships with. That person is going to become not a cute little baby anymore but an adult full flex adult who lives in the world and so to to really figure out like what has kept you from if there, if you do live in a place where these are options, where you have, you know, colleagues that are of different races and cultures and nationalities and sexual orientations. Like if you have that in your context and still your world is pretty homogeneous, your close up, you know, world. Um, what is that about? And maybe to start, not from the place of I'm going to adopt a kid so I need some friends, but rather do you, do you think of that as a problem? Not because you are going to adopt a kid but because it says something about who you naturally are inclined to friend and that that is a vulnerability for you. Then in being able to raise a child who is not your natural inclination to Brent as adults and that, um, and so I think if it, for people who are starting in that place, I would say there are a long way off from, um, the place of saying come and be my friend to be, you know, because I wanted to develop a social network that could be supportive to a child that I wanted. I develop a that I want to adopt, but rather I'm seeing a problem in the type of person that I think I want to be at versus the person who I am right now today. And how do I create a social context in my life that better represents with the adults available, the kind of person and life that I want to have and see how that goes. Practice with adults first before, you know, kind of jumping into it. And then I can raise a child. And so I think what it would tell me is that that person is a, is a number of stages off from even, you know, it shouldn't be those two things shouldn't be that close up. I need a friend because I'm going to adopt. It's like, okay, I'm thinking about adopting, but now this is causing me to reconsider who I am and what my social network is. And I realized I have some work to do before I even think about that. And then I can revisit that conversation after I experienced what this is like for me to go outside of the typical people that I, um, am inclined to hang out with or the friend.
Speaker 2:And by diversifying your, your social, by diversifying the things in your life that if a movable things, your church or your pediatrician, your, I guess if you're adopting, you may not have one, but your doctor, your OB GYN, your, uh, you know, whatever. Um, that's another way of, of, of naturally bringing people of diversity and people of color into your life without having to go up and say, Hey, be my friend. I need a friend. Um, all right. So some of the things that parents should be prepared to do in order to help their child is to diversify their life, their friends set, um, their church before. If there, if there are people of faith before they consider adopting a child of that race, what are some other things parents should do to prepare, to prepare, um, for the adoption or even the consideration of an adoption of a child of a different race?
Speaker 3:I think, you know, I anticipate that, um, questions are normal. The kids are gonna have that this is a big deal, not a big deal as in it's awful and your kid will be destroyed. But a big deal in, you know, this is an element of your family life and of this child's identity that will be lifetime life bond. It doesn't go away. You don't ever grow out of being adopted. You don't grow out of having parents with a different race. And this, this is, um, a marking for this particular child. And as they get older, they may have questions, they will have questions and some of them they will take to you. And some of them they won't. But to think through and anticipate that these things are normal, that is normal for a child to be curious about where they come from, who they look like. It's normal for a child to look at themselves and then look at their parents and make comparisons and um, at different stages want to look like their parents. We live in a world that, that just, those kinds of things are normal. And so for parents to think through before those questions come to anticipate them to him participate things like racial teasing and all of this kind of stuff. Um, and think developmentally about their answers. So that, and that's what I mean by that. It's kind of two things. One that there isn't like this time that you wait until a child should hear that there are to or be able to have conversations about race with them. But you think about how do I, how do I just talk about race even when my kids two and three and four. So then it's just a normal, no big deal. It's not a conversation. How do I just make observations in the world about gender, about race, about class, about whatever your family values are about these things. How do I integrate that? You don't wait until the child's tend to talk about Christmas if you're Christian, you know, like that's just kind of starts happening even when they're a baby and they're not of, most people throw birthday parties and all kinds of things for their babies and they'll have no awareness of whatsoever what's going on. And so we don't wait for other things that we're proud of and are comfortable about and wanting to socialize our child into. And so these, these issues of race, I think often times bubble up insecurities for people that caused them to not just handle them in the same way as you would handle these other things. So that when kids have questions, it's not some big thing that's build up. It's just, we talk about these things when they come up, it's no big deal and we deal with them and we move on and I'm able to talk about these things with you. Um, and I'm able to expose you to people who, um, who can also answer these questions with you from a lived experience, you know, real lived experience. And so I think, you know, and think about how are you going to layer on to what you tell the three year old who asked the question, what's adoption? How are we and why are we adopted? How are you going to tell that same story layered on at five, at 10, at 15, at 20, at 25 different, you know, child, the child will start to layer onto your answers, different pieces of information that they come into contact with, both inside and outside the family. And so to think through your, the story or weaving of why you're an adoptive family, why you adopted, why this particular child. Um, so that[inaudible]
Speaker 2:okay. Do you think that the adoption part and, and certainly we have made great progress there. We still want occasion here, families who have not told their child, but that really is the exception, right? Yeah. We have know. Thank goodness the, um, but I, I think that, uh, how you talk about race with a child who is not your race is different from how you talk about race. Otherwise there maybe it shouldn't be, but I think it often is. I, it's, it's interesting cause I've interviewed a number of black families who've adopted white children and, and almost everyone have mentioned that I've interviewed personally have mentioned that as an interesting dynamic that they hadn't really thought through. And that is how race is discussed with your family when all of a sudden you have a black family with a white child. But conversely, I think it's also true of white families who are adopting a black or an Asian or a Latino child or whatever. So I think that conversation, or maybe let me ask, is that conversation a harder one in how do you, uh, make certain that you are bringing up race, even if it's not, does it feel like it's coming up all the time? How, what are the cues that you need to be looking for in order to make certain that race is being discussed in your family? So that your child knows it's not a topic that's off limits.
Speaker 3:Yeah. So I think, no, this is one thing that my mom did really well. And so when people asked, you know, isn't it possible than white people talk about race or it's going to be different. I think it is different when you're a person who hasn't had that as a family. You know, like when you're a white person who's never heard candid conversations of people will call her where you've been the one white person in the room listening to people of color go on and on about how their crazy white colleague did X. You know, like if you've been kept out of the kinds of conversations, then I think for white people that is really hard to talk about if you've been a white person who has put yourself in situations and just naturally been in contexts where you have, um, situations where you're the only person and you're an observer of a very natural dynamic that happens often, at least in the circles I'm in. Um, where people just flippantly will say things like, guess what happened today at work? You know, or I go home to my husband and talk about how I've gotten talked over seven times in a meeting or whatever. You know, that, that I think if you're a white person who has had those kinds of friendships, then it's not weird. It's not weird to, to bring it up to while you're watching TV, there's 80 million opportunities to talk about race. Just turn on the demon news, turn on any TV show. Why is it when you're watching a TV show that's about, I don't know of a psychological thriller, the black people get killed first. You know, like th there's all kinds of words that you can use just everyday life to make just tiny little one off observations to help your child get a sense of how you understand the world, you know, and how you're interpreting people who look like them who are on TV or who are being talked about on TV. Um, so I do think that there are lots of opportunities. I think it just requires, uh, a racial lens of glasses that most people don't have a, have well developed.
Speaker 2:I think that is such an interesting point that I think that a lot of why people had been raised to not talk about race because we perceive it as rude or something. It's right. And, and you're right, uh, people of color for for obvious reasons don't have that lens. And, and I guess that's another form of white privilege that we can feel like it is, it's inappropriate to talk about race. So that's, and that's a stretch for pre adoptive parents are earlier in them to parents is to realize that if I'm hearing you correctly, we've got to get over our hesitancy to point out racial differences, to point out inequities to uh, to point out great things too. I mean, that's usually easier because people, you know, want to look for the better but to talk about race period. Yup. Yeah,
Speaker 3:yeah. Because being doing that tells your child you are not fragile. You can handle it because this is the life that your child is living. And if you can't even talk about it when they go out in the world and they're living it, you're not equipped as a person to be able to hear that at five years old what just happened to your kid at school. And they know that the kid knows that on a, at a very gut level, when they, they see something, you see something, you see nothing. You see something on TV, somebody says something on TV or you are out in the community and something happens and the parent says nothing. That kid still hears that. And what they hear in your silence is shame. It's not something we can talk about. I'm not going to talk about it. And so, wow, if that happens to me, where do I go? Because my parent hasn't shown me that they can handle it.[inaudible] talking about it. And so learning to be a counter social ization agent, you know, so you're learning to be able to stand up for your kid even when it's not actually happening, but it's happening to somebody else, you know, like how do you talk to people of color when you're out and about? Do you go up to the white person all the time, you know, and ask them for directions or ask them if they know X or whatever. Do you, do you interact with people of color with these? Do they like you? You know, these are all things that as kids, we pay attention to that. Um, and how our parents are doing that. And so, yeah, I think that's one of the biggest things for, for white folks to sort of get over themselves a little bit. That's actually harmful to not talk about race. It is, it leaves us alone. It does not an ally or friend thing to do. Um, and it, and it is important both to elevate the beauty of people of color and the successes and the, all of that and the resilience. And it also is important for white people to S to, to call out other white people when they are acting in ways that are harmful to your child.
Speaker 2:[inaudible] and get over our own discomfort. Um, and, and because, you know, our children are facing this discomfort as well. We have brought them into our world. So if our discomfort is probably a small mirror of a small percentage of what our, our children are experiencing, you know, and I as somebody who absolutely loves children's literature, you should be making certain that there are books in your house that, that don't just talk about race. Yes, yes. That is certain, but also just a book that where the main character is one kid. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Just so that there's, you know, that, not that the book is about race, but that, yeah,
Speaker 3:but is it, is if, if, if it is portraying the key character that is the heroine or hero, they are not blonde and white exactly as it is about race because you're[inaudible] and it should be about more than just their own, you know, like one of the things I loved that my mom did was not everything wasn't just pro-black in our house. So we were exposed to things that were about Asians and things that are about Mexicans and things were about, you know, like all kinds of other groups besides the one that I was going to be occupying, the one that my mom occupied. Um, and I think, you know, that goes back to the, I want my child to be a citizen of the world. Well then you've got to expose them to all these different, um, possibilities and introduce them to ideas of differences, something that's amazing and that they should be curious about in that time. Houses people's
Speaker 2:greatest strengths. Yeah. Yeah. Amen. I certainly agree. And just as an aside, something that I know that in our family that we, and I, it's probably because I love folk tales, but finding folktales where, you know, from every country, you know, and there were, it's, it's interesting how the similarities are and certainly at getting folk tales that are reflective of the culture are the race, are the history that your child is coming from is, is uh, because they aren't overtly racial generally, but they're there. All the characters are, are, are of your child's race, uh, and, and sometimes they are overtly racial or, but, but oftentimes it's just telling a great story where all the characters, um, the, the good and the bad characters because they're folktales. Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 4:For example, this show is brought to you by our partners and our partners, our agencies who believe in our mission to providing unbiased, accurate information to both pre and post adoptive families and foster families. Um, and they believe in, they believe in our mission. They're also willing to put their money behind their beliefs. Uh, and we are a nonprofit and quite frankly, we need agencies who believe in, uh, two such partners are hopscotch adoptions. They are a hake accredited international adoption placing agency. Then they placed kiddos from Armenia, Bulgaria, Croatia, Georgia, Ghana, Ghana, Morocco, Pakistan, Serbia, Ukraine. And they also do kinship adoption from a host of other countries. And we have adoption from the heart. They have helped build over 6,000 families since 1985 through their domestic infant adoption
Speaker 2:program. And they work with people all across the U S but they are licensed in Pennsylvania, New Jersey, New York, Delaware, Virginia and Connecticut. All right. Dr Samuels', today we are talking about should you consider adopting across racial lines? We are talking with dr Gina Samuels. Um, and you are a researcher. You're also an adult transracial adoptee. But I know of you as a researcher, so a, as a research geek, what is the research showing about how children fare who have been adopted? Transracially this is not the norm. Most most children are raised by parents who look like them. So how are kids doing? Is this, it does transracial adoption. Is the research indicating that kids are, you know, are, is it a, uh, is it a trauma to them? Is it, is it causing them, uh, to have psychological issues? Are they having identity issues or are they doing okay? And I realize that's over urban. Generalized.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Yeah. So all of that, it would be the answer. So before I kind of say any of the specifics, I think it's important for people to realize that the research in this area has really been slowed down by the broader public assumption that adoption is a great thing and all your problems end once you become adopted. And so, especially in the area of transracial adoption in infant adoption, private and independent, there has not been large scale studies that really help us to with any kind of resolute understand exactly. You know, what the proud, I think we have a good sense of what some of the scope of problems can be. Um, but for whom, under what conditions, what kinds of parenting, um, helps to moderate or mediate some of that. And so then that's of course what we wanted to know what we want. And so I think, you know, because we have a society that believes that once you place a child into adoption, then that's kind of the, that's the treatment, you know, for the problem that existed before. And so, um, there's very limited, with the exception of foster care, there's very limited, um, very wide-scale national or even international studies that really unpack all these series of questions that you just asked that are very legitimate questions. I think what we do know is that, you know, any time a child is removed from their origins, it's a trauma and, um, that doesn't mean that then from that trauma flows a host of horrible intractable problems or that they end up not being able to be happy in their and successful in their lives. But to take seriously that even when children are removed at birth, um, at day one and placed with their, uh, adoptive families, that that is a loss. Um, and that that is something that the child will have to heal around. Um, even if you didn't experience an actual sort of relational trauma abuse. So that's been very clearly demonstrated and I think all of the movement following about being open about the child that the child is adopted and not lying about it. And even more recently, you know, different iterations of openness and adoption are all to sort of recognize that this is something that has happened. It's real, it's a big deal and it's, it's something to work on as a family to heal through. Um, but that it is a trauma as in it is something that, that if, um, if left unaddressed can be debilitating for people, can be a big deal for folks to move through in their life developmentally across the life course. Um, take one of the things that we have learned about transracial adoption and adoption broadly is that there's all kinds of great outcomes that can happen when families are nurturing and you know, the same things that we know make a, a good and healthy family where adoption is not present with children or the same things that make a good and healthy family with children of it who are adopted. And so when children can access parents like that, then adoption is amazing. And there's really not a lot of difference between kids who grow up in loving, nurturing, caring, adoptive families and those who grew up in biological families that are equally nurturing and caring. I think, you know, where, where problems arise are around the issues of identity. And I think the more a child either is visually or perceived is perceived to be different. Um, and parents and the view which that is not taken seriously and dealt with and supported can fester issues of, you know, wellbeing, mental health, et cetera. Sometimes kids have mental health issues, um, for a variety of reasons. Same as with biological families. And so that, you know, doc doc being adopted doesn't solve that for you. And so if you have, um, mental health conditions or physical conditions or other kinds of health conditions, I think helping adopted parents too, that goes back to my deal with the stuff that has happened before. Um, and recognize that the adoption, you know, is, is a real thing that um, I think those things, same things happen and adoptive families and the degree to which adoptive parents are prepared for that I think is important. But, but I do think too, to a person, I have yet to talk to an adopted person in my journeys as a researcher and as just a transracially adopted person who doesn't have across their life course. Um, really profound sort of existential moments of identity work that are above and beyond what other people tend to go through. I was just talking to a colleague who's a little bit younger than me, but not that much. And we were joking. They had had children and I have not have children. And so we had talked about how these different adoption and race issues pop up. Even in your 50s, bring here when you think that you figured it all out and then all of a sudden some random thing in your life happens. And there it is again for you to rework again. Um, and another layer. And so I think just, um, I think one of the things we've really learned, even from the smaller scale studies is that adoption is a real thing. It's a real trauma and a loss. And how people deal with that is so different. And so for some people they deal with it by searching, um, and finding biological families and trying to put together all these different puzzle pieces, other people on the other clear end spectrum choose not to at all and try to live in a, in the life that they have been adopted into as their way of dealing with it. And I just think there's so many ways to do it healthfully, but, um, the more that that process is embedded in one that involves actual real information and, and um, and support around the reality of the adoption, I think those are healthier pathways that we've learned, um, can be available for young people and for adults who have been adopted rather than things that sort of embed anxiety or shame or a hidden avoidance of, of information. And so, yeah.
Speaker 2:And as in apparent parent who is considering adopting transracially your question to yourself, it seems to me is, am I ready to be an ally to my child and stand in, stand with them through this process of, and not deny the fact that there's going to be ups and downs and there's going to be issues, there's going to be struggles, but am I willing to be open enough and expose my vulnerabilities to be able to be there fully for my kid?
Speaker 3:Yeah. To help them figure this out. Oh yeah. Even if it's at the expense of my own comfort,
Speaker 2:especially if it's at the expense of[inaudible]. Yeah. You know, the one thing we, and I don't want to spend a lot of time on it, but without a doubt, another thing that parents need to consider, and this is especially the case if they're adopting an African American child or an African child or a Haitian or a Caribbean, a American child, and that is a haircare it part of why I don't want to spend a lot of time on number one, there's a lot of out there. And also I worry that we've almost, we have super saturated, uh, the awareness of hair care. And I almost, I, I find myself wanting to say it goes beyond haircare guys. It's not just, I mean, quite frankly, hair care is one of the easier things to figure it out, you know?
Speaker 3:Well, scale. But I do think, yeah, so I agree. I think the, the, the whole of cultural competence in parenting black children oftentimes gets equated with skin and haircare or hair and skin. And as long as you do hair, then you're good. And so I think instead of how I think about hair care is it's a proxy and a symbol for all the other things you probably are clueless about who was salon to get your child's hair done. Um, then there's kind of all sorts of other things. So it's sort of like the beginning frontier of all that is my, I am not the same that we are all different. We have[inaudible] actually our hair is fundamentally different and it's not, it doesn't have to be a big deal, but if you can't even address that, then it's a big deal. So I think it's this weird sort of paradox of it's a big deal. It's a big deal in the black community is signals all kinds of things about your proximity away from blackness. If your hair is jacked up, it sort of becomes the poster child for by reishi Allotey and translational adoption to see a little kid with crazy year. Um,
Speaker 2:and as an adoptive parent, you need to know that you're going to be judged on your kids
Speaker 3:come up. Yeah. People will come up to you and say stuff or give you the stink-eye if your kid is looking either or is looking unkempt because, or four, four black people in the community. We look at that and we think, wow, you know, like if you don't even have your kids care together, that's that neglect. You're neglecting your child. Like not washing a white kid's hair for a month, you know? And so if you're not paying attention to that and attuned to that and you're so sure that you know best that you're letting your child walk around this way, what else are you doing? What else are you probably at risk for being tone deaf too. And it's gonna also harm your child and that is gonna be burdened by your, you know, it'd be carried by your child.
Speaker 2:And, and uh, circling back to something you said, uh, at the beginning about, uh, extended family members, I'd be remiss not to bring that up because even if you, and if you're a partner to your partner, your spouse answer all these questions we're saying and you're saying, yeah, okay. You know what I think? I think I can do this, I am willing to do it. I'm willing to address my discomfort on my fragility or whatever. I'm, I'm, I'm willing to do it. I, I think you need to realize that there is a possibility that there will be someone in your family and not cool with it. Yeah. And how are you going to respond? And, and the truth is whether or not you want to call your, your, your uncle Joe racist or bigoted or just unaccepting you can use whatever euphemism you want. Right. How are you, um, and, and that's a person who's important to you. It's important to your parents or be even be your parents. Yeah. Where are the, where is your loyalty going to lie? Yup.
Speaker 3:Yup, yup, yup. One of the most damaging things for kids is for parents not to side with them. You know, so not like you're, you've been abandoned your parent, you know, like this, we talk about this in terms of when your cut child comes and discloses that they've been sexually molested or assaulted, you know, that you, your response shouldn't be, are you sure what happened? And so what are you willing to, what are you willing to do and how will you handle this? This certainly was a functioning in my family. We weren't, um, allowed to visit. Uh, my mom's one of my mom's brothers, um, except for to come into the back door at night because of what the neighbors would say. And, um, my mom stopped seeing him for love. We didn't have contact. And so, um, you know, like what are you and, and for me, that sent me a clear message. Wow, I'm, my mom's important and then my safety, my mom's going to protect me. My mom is going to protect me even at the expense of, of harming our relationship with our own brother who she loves. Uh huh. Yeah. You know, and that just sent an, I just never then questioned that my mom was there to protect me and would do that even when it harmed her. She would, my needs above hers. And when parents aren't able to do that or don't get the weight of what that is, to ask them what that would've meant for me to, to ask me to go to my uncle's house at night to the back door. Like, you know, the psychological developmental harm that that would have required in me exposed to that is pretty great. Yeah. And I, and I think I just look back and think, wow, the older I get, the more I appreciate that she was able to do that. I can't imagine, um, how hard that must've been for her, but um, am am ever grateful that that was the message that she conveyed to me. Cause I never questioned it ever.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And that's, I mean it's, it's uncomfortable to think of our own family that way, but taking your look at your family, a clear eye with clear eyes and just being prepared in your head to say that they would do as you're, that you'd be doing as your mother did. I will choose my child. Yeah. I will. It's not just your physical safety. I will choose my child's emotional safety. Um, over that and we'd be the, the last thing I want to bring up is to talk about the idea of openness. Most, uh, domestic infant adoptions now have some degree of openness and there's a movement towards some degree of openness in, uh, adopted from foster care and even in international adoptions. So, uh, and if you're adopting a child of race and you are in one and one essence of, of open adoption is that you are expanding your family. Yes you have that you have a child, but you also when you adopt that child are bringing into your fold that child's family on some level. And there's different levels of openness. Um, and the reason we do this, I mean you always come back to this is because there is strong research that indicates that it is best for children. So how does openness play out if you are adopting a, uh, a child of another race and there's going to be openness. So you are bringing in a fam, not just a cute little infant or two year old, but you know, maybe a a 25 year old, uh, you know, who is wealth totally formed and, and, and totally a inculturated into that community. So let's talk briefly about that.
Speaker 3:Yeah. So that kind of goes back to my point of are you able to just as an adult, hang with other people who are adults who are not your race. Can you even do that? Cause if you can't do that, then this makes open adoption. Really freaky. You know, cause it's a lot easier to bring in a little baby or a child who doesn't have full agency exactly like that to then be dominant over that child and, and center your, you know, comfort and what have you. But it's a lot different when it's just you and then in the sea of their family who is fully formed and has agency and all of that sort of thing. And so I think it goes back to for people who, who have had these experiences, then they can navigate that a little better. You know, they don't need to be in control all the time or have their, um, their way of relating or where that happens or the food that gets eaten or the time of day that that happens or whatever it is. Um, they're able to do that a little bit better. But I also think it's sorta like, you know, the idea of that you would marry somebody and never meet their extended family, that you just live in a low loving cocoon with you and your partner and their parents and family and brothers and sisters would never be part of your world that you form with them and then your future children. And so, you know, open adoption sort of begins to treat adoption similar to marriage, which is sort of what happens when you do get married and you have children with that person. Those children don't exist someplace else before you. And so it actually is the same, but it's just that you're starting from a place that's further back in that developmental process such than a child already exists from a different path family that you have not married yet. So I think it does really require people to realize that what they're doing is fundamentally different than their friends who got partnered or didn't partner and had a biological child that were, who did that, that this is one of those places where this is truly different in terms of what you're doing and the implications of, of,
Speaker 2:and of course openness looks very different for everyone. But, um,[inaudible] at the time at which the child is 18, they can go and have whatever kind of relationship they want. And so when she want to be part of that process and figuring that out with, with your child[inaudible] and, and, and you, if the, if your child's birth family is of a different race than you, you've got to get comfortable with loving are going if you don't choose to love them. But, but hanging out with or sharing or incorporating on some level, um, them into your life, whether it's daily meetings, weekly meetings once a year, or just[inaudible] letters and, and frequent pictures and whatever it is, you are still opening your life. Uh, and, and it's important to think about that prior to prior to the adoption. Well, thank you so much dr Gina Samuel's for being with us today. Dr Samuels is a professor at the university of Chicago school of social service administration and she's affiliated with the center of race, politics and culture.
Speaker 4:Let me remind everybody that the views expressed in this show are those of the guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of creating a family, our partners or our underwriters. Also keep in mind that the information given in this interview is general advice to understand how it applies to your specific situation. You need to work. You
Speaker 2:work with your adoption professional. Thank you so much everyone and I will see you next week.