What do you need to know if you are considering adopting a baby in the US? What is the process, how long does it take, how much does it cost, and what decisions do adoptive parents have to make? Host Dawn Davenport, Executive Director of Creating a Family, the national adoption & foster care education and support nonprofit talks with Erin Patterson, Director of Adoption for Upbring Adoption; and Jill Davies, Executive Co-Director for Caring for Kids: Adoption, Foster, Care and Birth Parent Services.
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What do you need to know if you are considering adopting a baby in the US? What is the process, how long does it take, how much does it cost, and what decisions do adoptive parents have to make? Host Dawn Davenport, Executive Director of Creating a Family, the national adoption & foster care education and support nonprofit talks with Erin Patterson, Director of Adoption for Upbring Adoption; and Jill Davies, Executive Co-Director for Caring for Kids: Adoption, Foster, Care and Birth Parent Services.
Please leave us a rating or review RateThisPodcast.com/creatingafamily
* Note that this is an automatic transcription, please forgive the errors.
Speaker 2:welcome to creating a family talk about adoption and foster care. Hey everyone, listen up friends. Don't let friends wander around in the dark and search a food information that is my PSA asking you to let your friends know about this podcast. We are ranked as number one and we really, really, really want to keep that ranking. And the way we do that is I uh, new subscribers. We're seeing a huge growth in subscriptions and we are so excited about that and we want to keep it up. So please do us a favor. Mention us to your friends and if you happen to be listening and are not please subscribe.
Speaker 3:Today i s one of our one on one series. We are going to be talking about a general intro to domestic infant adoptions in the US. Our guests are E rin Patterson. She is the director of adoption for u pbringing adoptions and Jill Davies, who is the executive co-director for caring for kids adoption, foster care and birth p arent services. Welcome Aaron and Jill to creating a family. And thank you so much for doing this, d oing this course with us today. Thank you for having us. I think that there are a lot of misperceptions for people who are just starting off and adoption, understanding what is really the general lay of the land i n domestic infant adoption. U h, so I'm g onna start by giving some basic information to get everybody on the same ground, the same ground floor here. The number of infant adoptions in the u s has decreased in, in like from 10 years ago and certainly from 20 years ago. But really as of now, it's really holding fairly steady at about the 18,000 range. Um, and the, uh, domestic infant adoptions comprise only 0.5% of all live births in the United States and only 1.1% of births to single parents. I think that's, uh, something that a lot of people don't realize. I also think that people don't realize the cost and the average cost according to a survey done by adoptive families magazine is around 40 to 45,000. Now, that's a range. So obviously, uh, we have adoptions that are below that and adoptions that are above that, uh, that that's uh, that gives you a kind of a general range and we'll talk about uh, what might influence the cost. A little lighter. And uh, about 62% of prospective adoptive parents are matched with an expectant parent. I expect at mom within one year of applying and about 82% are matched within two years of applying. And depending on your state, you can use either an adoption agency or an adoption attorney. It's important to note that adoption, adoption law differs by state. It is controlled by state law. And so it, uh, and, and, and there really are some significant differences between states including whether or not a, you can use an adoption attorney. Uh, we go through a creating a family goes through the differences between adopting through an adoption attorney or an adoption agency and provides detailed information on how to choose an agency or an attorney. And an eagle we have, it is the creating a family multimedia guide on choosing an adoption agency or attorney. And you can get it on our website, creating a family.org. Uh, it's under our resources tab. You just click[inaudible] guides and you can get it there. All right, so now I want to bring our distinguished guests, uh, on to, uh, ask them some questions. So, Aaron, uh, let's start with you. How do you see domestic infant adoptions today that, how do infant adoptions today differ from how they did, say, 10 years ago or even further back?
Speaker 4:You know, that's a big question. Um, there are so many different things that are different about adoption. If you look at the presidents of adoption as a practice in the United States, it's still pretty young and we've seen so much change. First of all, we see a difference in perception. I think adoption used to be, um, something that was shrouded with silence and shame and the lack of knowledge and education. And I think today we can look at it. And so much of the work that we do is about training, education, the importance of openness, about, um, making it something to be proud of in the community. Also touching on education, we have expectations that adoptive families that are not in day difference from what they might've been 10 years ago in terms of best preparing them for success in this adoption. So I just see a lot of differences even within the last 10 years.
Speaker 3:Okay. Jill, do you see I, could you add anything on some differences that you see as well?
Speaker 5:Sure. I would say 10 years ago we didn't talk a lot about the birth parents or the expectant parents. Excuse me. Um, and we certainly do that now and every member of the triad is paid attention to and serviced. Um, you know, we push education at caring for kids and many other agencies do as well. And not, we don't push adoption, but we do push education and want people to be able to make the decision that they feel is best for their child, for their family. And I think that is quite different than it was a long time ago. There were, you're still a lot of myths around it, but those are the big pieces that I see changing over these last several years.
Speaker 3:[inaudible] not that. And this, Jill, I'm asking you not that, that there is, you know, that you can, uh, put, uh, all expected moms who are considering adoption into a neat box and tie it up and describe it in, in a very concise way. But can you describe what some of the, what are some, what are, what would be a typical, uh, uh, expectant mom who is considering adoption?
Speaker 5:Well, I think that's another myth. Um, that people think it's like the teenage moms and truly that's probably our lowest statistic. Our teenage moms, um, they typically, at least in this area seem to parent more often, but maybe in the mid twenties, but we've had as old as 40 something, you know, um, make adoption plan. So people that think about if it was right, I, we find people that are coming to private adoption agencies are generally thinking about, you know, certainly the child thinking that they are not suited to parent or it wasn't the right time to parent and that they want to, you know, make an adoption plan for their child. They also want to most often be involved or you know, have a higher level of openness than in the past. So I think there are some myths that they're the young teenagers and sweeping under the rug and that is, like I said, probably our lowest statistic.
Speaker 3:July. I agree. That's I, with everything you just said, Aaron, we certainly hear a lot about uh, the uh, drug epidemic opiates as well as meth and other drug epidemic in the United States. Do, uh, are you seeing an increase and moms who are considering placement who are struggling with addiction?
Speaker 4:We really aren't to tell the truth. If I look at the profiles of the women that we've worked with over say the last five years, that's probably the smallest percentage of women that we've worked with. If anything, I see an increase in women that are educated full time employed, um, coming from a variety of different backgrounds, but fewer of them are struggling with various forms of addicted addiction. Then I would have seen maybe 10 years ago.
Speaker 3:Huh. That's interesting. Jill. Is it, was that reflective of your agency as well,
Speaker 5:say? No, I would say when we were doing this 10 years ago or even eight years ago, that families that are the expected parents, I suppose that came to us, we didn't really educate our adoptive families too much on, you know, infants that were drug exposed or alcohol exposed a little bit, but not nearly like today because what we're finding is that we do have an increase in that area and the women are educated and they are not wanting to have their child, um, go into foster care or go into children's services. And maybe they've had experience there in the past or friends that have, and they know they're struggling with drug addiction and that is not what they want to do. So they do come to us and make a private adoption plan. And we've been, I think we've been very successful in that area. Um, again, because they have, you know, an illness and an addiction issue doesn't mean they can't make a good educated, you know, adoption plan for their child. So
Speaker 3:[inaudible] exactly. And, and, uh, we can educate, uh, pre adoptive parents to help them make a decision whether they're the best family to choose a child to adopt a child that, uh, has had prenatal exposures. So yeah, that, that falls back into the education, uh, part you were talking about. All right. Aaron, can you walk us through what the domestic infant adoption process, uh, at your agency at upbringing?
Speaker 4:Absolutely, because we serve both the adopted family and the expectant mother expecting couple. There's really sort of two paths that we take. Um, first for adoptive families are programs that are a little bit different and that we only open the intake process once a year. We do that for a variety of different reasons, but throughout the year we keep a wait list and when it's time to reopen the intake process, we'll go through training, through paperwork, through the home study process with that family. And after several months, once they've reached the end of that part, they began the waiting process to be matched with a child with an expectant mother. Um, on the flip side of the coin, when we're working with expectant mothers and couples, so much of that depends on where they are in their pregnancy. Obviously for in a situation where this mother is in labor or has just that child. Then in Texas we have 48 hours before that child is discharged in which we can complete people work with mom, set up a plan, match with an adoptive family. If on the other hand say she contacted us halfway through the pregnancy, we have a lot more time to work with her to counsel to support. So we'll, we'll go through paperwork with her to begin. So just learn about where she is. We'll do needs assessments to see how we can best support her through the remainder of her pregnancy. If she chooses, she may identify an adoptive family and may build a relationship with them throughout the remainder. We have some clients where they'll come to every doctor's appointments, they'll meet on a regular basis. So, so much of it will depend on where they are in their pregnancy and their delivery plan. Um, that's a, that's a good approximation of how it works for us.
Speaker 3:Okay. Jill, how is it a, how does it differ, uh, at caring for kids?
Speaker 5:Well, I can tell you that we do work with the same thing that Aaron just said to two different paths. So for working with adoptive families or prospective adoptive families, they have to come through and we are opening that. We were taking them anytime they came, but we don't want our roster to be so full. So we are changing that kind of right now we're in that transition and probably doing more like quarterly, um, open, you know, getting applications and then getting home study started for adoptive family and they go through training and they go through a whole another division of our agency. And then expectant parents we do. Um, except, you know, anytime they call, like she said, so he goes to, you know, typically go out and meet them wherever they would like to meet us and, or we pick them up and take them somewhere if they, if transportation's an issue so that we can just have a private meeting of anybody that they invite to that meeting. Um, and then start working with them in terms of just like the paperwork and talking to them about what adoption is. Why do they want to look at this? And just trying to ex make, have them be able to explore all avenues of their, um, you know, whether it's adoption or any, you know, parenting and then it's up to them if they want to continue to meet with us of course. So, um, like Erin said, again, straight from the hospital, we can go straight to a hospital and meet with someone that they've already delivered versus, you know, we can meet with them in the first couple months of their pregnancy and then work with them on how we would make that plan from there,
Speaker 3:from a, um, um, prospective adoptive parents point of view, then, um, they could apply to your agency and both of you are, are, are limiting the number of applicants you're taking. Um, and, and that's been that. And some agencies do and some agencies don't. Uh, Aaron, what are the advantages of limiting?
Speaker 4:I think we certainly see more willing adoptive families and we do see, uh, expecting couples trying to make an adoption plan. So for one thing, we want to be ethical in our approach for the adoptive families. We don't want to have 30 families waiting for three years. And so we can keep wait times reasonable if we limit the intake and the number of families accepted any given time. I think also one of the things we hear from our families so often is that it creates a cohort of sorts where these families go through the process as a group and find great support and collaboration and experiencing the process together. So they'll attend training together, we'll have them complete a networking agreement, then they can communicate freely throughout their adoption process. So that's been extremely beneficial for our families and for the agency.
Speaker 3:Okay. So now we've got, uh, expected parents on one track and we've got adoptive parents or prospective adoptive parents, um, on another tax. So with an a d when an expectant mom comes in, at what stage and, and, and this I will say differs by agency. Uh, at what stage in her pregnancy will you make a match? And Jill, let's start with you. Uh, and then Erin, cause I, it may be different between the two agencies. There is a great deal of difference between agencies. At what stage they will make an adoption.
Speaker 5:Sure. Jill, starting with you, and like you said, it depends on when they call in their pregnancy. Sometimes it's a rush and we still try to give them every single bit of education, every single option open to them, but in a much faster method than people that we start talking with, you know, in the beginning of their pregnancy. But most of the time I would say that if we can, we try to wait until that last trimester to actually do the match. We may have presented profile books and had them, you know, start working on those kinds of things, thinking about all those, but typically not until that last trimester. But we are not real strict about that. Um, we've had a couple expectant parents that said, I don't want to place my baby with who I feel is like a stranger. So I want to get to know them. I want to spend lots of time with them prior to the birth. And, um, we let that happen if that's, you know, what they want. And the adoptive family that they really want is an agreement that is okay with us, you know, and we've seen that work very well too. So let me try to be as individualized as possible. And don't have like firm rules on any of that.
Speaker 3:Okay. Aaron, how about with your agency? Does that bring have that same approach or do they have a a different approach
Speaker 4:that does have a similar approach? We don't have a firm policy on when we would match a couple things. So much of about it is the work of our case managers and meeting with that woman, evaluating her and seeing where she is and the decision making process. So, so often when you lay eyes on that person and talk with them and you're about where they are, what are their questions, what are their concerns? We can better gauge how confident they are in this decision. If we feel we need to walk along the process with them for longer and wait until the time where we feel more confident, we'll do that. But just as Jill said, occasionally we'll have a mother who says, I'd like to meet them now. I'd like to build a relationship or we've had a client come in who said, I've never wanted to be a mother. This is my gift. To give another couple and I'd like to start that right now. So it's really on a case by case basis. But I do think ideally we would like to wait until the final trimester so that we're not investing, you know, eight months of time to have it fall apart at the last minute.
Speaker 3:[inaudible] all right. So we have expectant parents and in most often is expected moms, but, but sometimes it is a couple who were, who were looking at, uh, and adoptive parents, uh, generally are preparing an adoptive parent profile. It's called different things by different agencies. A, it's called a profile, a adoptive parent portfolio. Uh, some agencies call it a dear birth mother letter. It's, it's, it differs by agency and it's a synopsis of, of a and your agency. And we have courses on that, on a how to prepare and what to include. And your agency will also be helping you in, most agencies have a specific idea of what they're, they want. And oftentimes they're asking for specific links or whatever. And sometimes they specify the format that they want this portfolio, our profile to be in. So the adoptive parents usually prepare this and then the next stage is often that with many agencies is that the expected parents are shown at their profiles of various numbers of, of potential adoptive parents. Aaron, is that how it works? Uh, with upbringing
Speaker 4:it does work that way. We rely mostly on photo books, the same ones that you would create, you know, on Snapfish or any company like that and asks families to first create a graph that they are happy with and send it to us for review. We'll ask that they include a letter to that expectant mother to tell them about themselves, their hobbies, their interests and what the life of that child would look like in this family. So we tried to relay all of that through a photo book. And then also on our website we have our meet the families page and on that page you can get a very basic understanding the CFO and hear a little bit about that family. And then that mother, she likes learn more. We can see the photo books or even meat.
Speaker 3:Jill, how do you, assuming you that you use a similar process, how do you choose which, uh, adoptive parents to present to an expectant mom or an expected couple?
Speaker 5:Oh, that's a great question. Um, we have
Speaker 3:$64 million question
Speaker 5:and you know, we do the profile books and very similar to what Aaron just said and show samples at like there's, um, training and we always remind our adoptive families to that even though they feel like we know them upside down because we did their home study, that that is not what the expectant parents see. So they see their book in their letter and just as they're unsaid, you know, we want it to be realistic because they are, you know, 99% of the time going to meet that family. And we want it to be very realistic of what, um, they're showing in their book. So that is all a process. But then when we meet with the expectant parents and we ask them, you know, and getting 10 of them and doing a health history with them and asking them what they want to see in their adoptive families, that's what really gives us our parameters. You know, whatever they want. Do they want show other children in the family, do they want their child to be the first, you know, child, all those kinds of things. So trying to get as many ideas from them as we can. And then we, um, tell our adoptive families and our expecting parents and we try to go back to the, you know, like eight families that match their criteria, the closest. And then
Speaker 3:so you're showing, uh, expected parents around around aid profile.
Speaker 5:So if it's a, if it's a potential, you know, Chiam that matches a lot of people's, you know, what they want. We would go with our longest waiting eight to say first if they say we have 20, that match her criteria because we really don't do things based on when you got put on the list. We do things based on what would be the best match or what we think. So that's how we do the eight. Now, like I said, if it's 20, we would take the longest waiting eight first. And then we always tell families if they're not connecting with anyone to let us know and we'll bring them more. Um, and then we ask them to customize their letter as well after they get to know who we're presenting to them, you know, who we're going to present their profiles up to. We have general letters here, but then we ask them to, you know, make their specific. So if somebody is asking for a specific middle name or something to address that in the letter or how many visits, any of those things to put that in the letter. So, um, really other than that, I think that's it. And then, you know, we give it to them, let them take as much or as little time as they want to decide if they want to meet one family, two families or three families sometimes too, uh, narrow that process down or even ask for more profile books.
Speaker 3:Aaron, how many, uh, on average, how many profiles, uh, do does your agency show expect at moms?
Speaker 4:We actually generally keep it to three or four. Um, we, I mean for one we're a small program, but for another, what I have found working with expectant mothers is that it can be overwhelming. And so we'll start with three or four based on the parameters. Just like Jill said, that they've outlines oftentimes have issues of race or religion or something that's extremely important to them that helps us, helps us narrow down how many, if however, in a rare situation we have 10 families that all meet those parameters, we would probably add another one or two and then talk with mom and see how she's feeling if she's interested in seeing more and take it from there. And, and
Speaker 3:in your experience, what do expect it moms or couples look for when choosing adoptive parents?
Speaker 4:That actually is a$64 million question because that's where everyone says, oh my goodness, um, you know, I don't want it to sound over romanticized in any way, but the thing that I just hear over and over and over again is I'm looking for good people. I'm looking for a happy home and obviously you can't really break that down. Um, that's, that's all about what she is looking for. But we do hear it's important to me that the family be African American or it's important to me that they'd be practicing Catholics. So we'll really talk with mom and see what is important to her and see if we can use that to really filter down the families that we have waiting. Um, but coming into this field, one of the things that has consistently surprised me is actually how, how few characteristics that they really hone in on that are, um, deal breakers for them. I was surprised by that. Huh? That's interesting. Jill, any thoughts on that?
Speaker 5:No, I don't think I, well, I guess I just think it's amazing to me what their criteria is. And then, you know, you come back and try to present the best, you know, profile books that you can from meeting with them and to, you know, then their criteria thinking that you're, you know, trying to give them exactly as close to what they're looking for as you can. And then there's just something in those profile books that I always connect, which is why we always say be yourself. And people are like, oh, we have pets. Should we put them in? Yes. You know, so, yeah. Um, well what if they don't like animals, then you're not the right match. You know, like that's that whole kind of thing. But it's amazing to me how many find then once they do at least have one or even two families that they want to meet with, how many other things they do have in common. So it's even some of those, it could be just a basic thing here or there that they're looking for. And then amazingly because of something in those pictures or just something that speaks to them that you know, they ended up having so much more in common name, you know, different music in common. Like it's just one of those that I feel like again, we have more in common than we don't. And I think that surprises a lot of um, families, adoptive families and expected couples. So you know, that they have that much in common with these other people. Yeah.
Speaker 4:That we're more, we're more alike than[inaudible]. Right? Yeah, yeah. A lesson for all of us in so many different levels. Right. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Let me pause for a moment and say that this show is brought to you with the support of jockey being family foundation. They have been underwriting this show for a number of years and we are so appreciative of their support. They're sending out a call to all adoption agencies. They want them to consider signing up for their jockey being family backpack program. It is free to the agency and it's free to the families. It is part of jockey being family's mission of post adoption support. And what it is, is a really nice quality backpack with the child's initials. And inside is a cute little bear and a warm little huddle. We'd go and get and a tote bag full of parenting, adoptive parenting resources.
Speaker 3:All of this is, is part of their mission to help and support and educate families post adoption. And all the agency needs to do is go to their website, jockey being family.com click on backpack program and sign up and all of their newly adoptive families will receive one of these backpacks. So hop on over there and it's a, it's a win-win. Families when you win and education wins. So I guess that's a win, win, win. That would be three wins. So hop on over there and do that. Right? So after and expected mom or couple chooses an adoptive family deal, what's the next step? So she looks at these portfolios or profiles and she says, okay, I, I think this is a family that I'd like to get to know more about. So what's the next step?
Speaker 5:So we send an email out usually to the adoptive prospective adoptive family that she wants to meet with and set up something. They know their profile was presented. Um, most of the time, unless it's an emergent situation. So, and then we just set up, you don't usually try to do a lunch or a dinner or something together. So, you know, the birth parent counselor goes, the expectant parents go and the adoptive family goes and meet with each other, talk about, you know, all of them. They just all kind of talk about whatever questions they have. We help facilitate that if need be. Most of the time we're all I needed for the first five minutes. Sorry. After that they seem to take it away, you know, um, we can do that with one or two families. We try not to do more than two, but there are an occasion where we'll do three, but most of the time it's two. And then they, um, make, you know, the expectance couple makes their decisions on who they would like to, you know, maybe either meet again or just from that meeting say this is the family that I feel really connected with. And then we go from there.
Speaker 3:What if the family, the adoptive family that lives out of state or the, um, the expectant parents live out of state?
Speaker 5:We deal mostly in Ohio. Um, the ones that we work with out-of-state are usually coming to us through other agencies that we're helping do like the Ohio work for, but not matching the family. So. Gotcha. We don't really have to do that very often. We've had a couple situations where we have, and we do things through the mail. We've done a couple of phone, you know, phone type, Skype type interviews, which are a little harder obviously than in person. Um, but it works for those few that we've done, but most of ours are face to face in Ohio.
Speaker 3:Okay. Aaron? So after a, um, after that first meeting, do, uh, parents and adoptive parents and expect it parents just start communicating amongst themselves? Is it always through the agency? Are they, what's the goal at that point?
Speaker 4:I think in adoption you can basically assume that there is no standard and how you proceed and that's, that is a truthful yes. There's no universal, yeah, there's no universal truth in this process. And so what we do, so much of the work that we do is putting the expectant mother and the adoptive family in the driver's seat. And what we can do is mediate in a way that is safe for everybody involved. And so we'll talk with them and say what kind of contact is comfortable for both of you. And we do see cases where they'll set up a separate email account and have direct communication that way. Um, we occasionally see cases where they're very comfortable right off the bat and will share phone numbers and communicate. We also have cases where they don't see each other again until the hospital. So we really want to let them remain in the lead as long as that's inappropriate thing to do.
Speaker 3:Okay. And one of the things that, um, I, we preach a lot here at creating a family is that most adoption agencies do this. And, and oftentimes this is a separate service that that is an add on for adoption attorneys. But that is a expensive counseling for birth parents both in helping them make the decision and then continuing to counsel and support them throughout their pregnancy but also after their pregnancy. So that's something that I just wanted to throw out there for people who, uh, if you're using an agency as a good question to ask or if you're using an attorney, the attorney should have counselors that they can connect. Now you would have to generally pay for that as a separate fee of a, not always some attorneys include that. Um, but counseling for expectant parents is, is really important. How are[inaudible] both my questions both how to your agency, but also if you could, uh, if you could expand to how it's handled differently with other agencies. And that is birth parent expenses. That is one of the unknowns as far as, uh, domestic infant adoption and, and in each state has a different law as to what is allowed. I mean, are you allowed to pay the birth moms? Are they expectant moms? We that the term is birth parent expenses, but it really should be more expectant parent expenses because at this point they're not birth parents, but the uh, their housing, their transportation. What about maternity clothes? What about, what about our medical bills if she's not insured either under Medicaid or private insurance. So it could be a very large amount. So, Aaron, can you walk us through how both your agency but also how, what's the variety, different ways that you see a birth parent expenses handled throughout agencies?
Speaker 4:It's difficult for me to address how they might proceed with that with other agencies only because I've only worked for one other and don't know those inner workings. But I'm certainly happy to tell you a little bit about how we proceed, I'm sure. Yeah. So and upbringing, what we do is, um, so many of the fees that we incur on behalf of expectant mothers or parents are covered by the adoption fees based by the adoptive family. That being said, also included in our annual budget is we set aside a certain amount of money that you'd be used to support an expectant mother throughout her pregnancy and that's limited by a state standard. So there are things that we can assist with. We can, you know, take her grocery shopping, we could cover the cost of um, prescriptions, we can assist in small ways like that or not. However, able to pay for an apartment for the remainder of her pregnancy or anything on a larger scale further, we can't just no handle a stack of cash, um, at any point in that adoption process. So, um, we do our best to support and provide for her throat the remainder of her pregnancy. And if on occasion we come up against a situation where is appropriate for us to support her but it is out of budget, we would then go to our board here at the agency to try to use endowment funds to assist her. So again, it works a little bit on a case by case basis.
Speaker 3:And for your agency you are not expecting adoptive parents to cover that fee. Um, and then that is, that is one way some agencies work. Jill, does your agency handle it differently? A little bit? If not, I can dress with different ways. Other agents, go ahead and tell, say your agency here.
Speaker 5:Okay. So we in Ohio, you know it's been only in the past probably six or seven years that we've even been allowed to have birth parent living expenses. So it's still in the fairly new of how it gets executed. But they are supposed to be for adoption related expenses. So and then there is a cap as well. So you know, we do help birth parents, especially if they're financially struggling to maybe come up with the budget. And that again depends on where they are in their pregnancy, what that budget would be because the cap is the cap, whether we met them after birth or if we met them in their first couple months of pregnancy and it does have to all be taken care of by the 60th day after the baby's born. So the same thing that Aaron said, really just trying to look at it individually, trying to, you know, work a budget with them. We also cannot and do not want to be just handing cash out or anything like that, but we are allowed to help make some payments or you know, keep, we try to look at um, basic needs, making sure basic needs are met first and then going from there. So it is sometimes a challenge and we are very happy. We want to be able to help, you know, expectant parents. But we also, it can come with its challenges and time consuming, all those kinds of things. If we're working with a birth mother in Ohio, but they are matched with an Alice state family and you know, and actually came to us from another agency off and we're managing that for that agency. And you know, there are finalizing in the state where the agency, the other agency is or where the adoptive family is. So those can be a little bit different. But[inaudible].
Speaker 3:Yeah. And as, as we've just heard, each of you have referred to your state law, and this is an example of where state laws really do vary significantly. So from a PR prospective, parents, adoptive parents standpoint, the, uh, this is impossible to answer for a, through it for every state. So your agency or your attorney in the state where you are adopting, we'll be able to tell you what is allowed. And, and some agencies, uh, don't have, uh, individual adoptive parents pay for the, uh, expected parent expenses and other agencies do. And then some agencies have all adopted parents, AH, pay into a general fund. Uh, so that's, it's, uh, and then that, that fund is used to cover birth parent expenses. So it's handled, uh, as many different ways as you could imagine. But it is something for prospective adoptive parents to ask about. Uh, because I think it's, it's an important thing to know. At the very beginning we talked a little bit about, uh, openness. Uh, Aaron, let's have the majority of adoptions now and domestic it than adoptions have some degree of openness. And so let's talk about what we mean by openness and, and what, what is open this look like, uh, in adoption now.
Speaker 4:I'm glad we're talking about that because I think there's a lot of confusion surrounding open and closed adoptions. Um, for our purposes here at upbringing, an open adoption is any sort of agreement between the adoptive family and the birth family. Anything they can agree upon in terms of how they're going to communicate following the adoptive placements. So for example, we just see such a huge range of openness in our agency. We have one situation right now where the biological mother is the family's go to babysitter. And so she's a very regular part of their lives. We have another client where they have an open adoption, but they've agreed to not communicate at all. It's just an open in case the need should arise at some point in that child's life. Um, so it can be any variety of different circumstances that both parties agree to. Whereas with a closed adoption, it's disclosed at the end of the story and you really have no flexibility later in life.
Speaker 3:And, and I think it's important when we talk about openness that the reason that most adoptions have some degree of openness is there is a lot of good research that indicates that it is in the best interest of adopted people, adopted children and adopted adults, um, for there to be some degree of openness and sharing of information. Uh, it helps with identity formation and it, it just helps with a general sense of who they are. So it's important to understand that the reason that, uh, that there are so many open, they're most adoptions have some degree of openness is because it's for the, in the best interest of, of children. Uh, yeah. And I, yeah, it's one of those things. Uh, Jill, do you want to add anything before we move off of openness?
Speaker 5:Yes. I would just like to say that, you know, I know that there are attorneys in Ohio, even that will say no, there is no such thing as an open adoption. And that's only because it's not mandated by the court. Um, cause we, all the social workers want to say, oh, there's like thousands of people living open adoption and very successful way in Ohio. But it's, you know, it's not mandated by the court. So it's more of a gentleman's agreement type of thing. But we've also been told by our adoption attorneys that, you know, our highest level adoption attorneys that we shouldn't even guarantee any closed adoption anymore in this day of all the social media and all the ways of finding people that we don't need it.
Speaker 3:Genetic testing. There is a myth if you think that an adopted person who, yeah, and it's not. And the other interesting thing to realize about the, over the canal over the counter, a spit in a tube type of Jay in a genetic test. Uh, the, it's not just whether the adoptive person or the birth parent, uh, takes interest, you know, and, and, and, and submits their DNA. Anyone in any part of their family, even two or three, uh, generations. Our, our, uh, our duration is not the right word, but you know, second, third or fourth cousin type of thing, um, uh, removed. It is a myth to think that if an anybody adopted now if they want to find out, uh, they will be able to. Um, uh, yeah, so I, yeah, I think your attorneys are correct.
Speaker 5:Right. And we give a lot of, um, W so we have added that to our birth parent counseling and that, you know, if it, especially if they're really sticking, a lot of people start with, you know, thinking they want clothes and put it under the rug. And we always feel like if we do our job while they come out of that while we're talking with them, but not always, but just letting them know that this could be a future concern. Like it's not, it may not stay a secret forever. Um, it won't be us telling, but you know, it could be somebody else. So I think that's a good thing to know. And I also agree with Aaron that the openness can come from any range from, you know, people seeing each other all the time and even vacationing together or birth grandparents, you know, sometimes babysitting the children or taking them on weekends to, you know, just exchanging still pictures and letters and maybe, um, you know, talking just a couple of times a year. So, and I think one of the other education pieces is the attitude of openness. And so if you have the attitude of openness that that is very, very healthy.
Speaker 3:Yes, exactly. I often say openness is more attitude than action. Um, it can be both and, and, and often it is, but it is the attitude of openness. I'm really glad you said that.
Speaker 2:Let me remind everybody that this show could not and would not happen without the generous support of our partners. And these are agencies that believe in our mission of education and support and they believe in and supporting us. They have put their money behind their beliefs to help support us, to be able to provide pre and post adoption education and support to all types of families. One such partner is children's connections. They're an adoption agency providing services for domestic infant adoption, embryo donation and adoption throughout the United States. And they also do home studies and post-adoption support families in Texas. And we also have Spence jpeg. They're an adoption agency in New York City and they've been around for a long time. And one of their programs is a mentorship program where they recruit adopted adults. They ask for them to be over 21 and they serve as mentors, volunteer mentors,
Speaker 3:two words in there that I think they call it their adoption mentorship program. And they match mentors with younger adoptees and the mentors serve as role models and they, uh, they kick it off in the fall of the year and they are looking for volunteer mentors. And I will say that, that, uh, the mentors get as much out of it as the, I think this is a dumb word, but mentees, I think that is the correct word, but that the, the, the mentors get as much out of it as the young people that they are mentoring. Uh, and uh, they prefer that the mentors live in New York, New Jersey or Connecticut because there are some in-person things that they do and, and spits shape in is in New York. So you can get more information by going to the[inaudible] website and clicking on mentorship. So please do that. It's a great program. All right, now let's talk about what we, the the, the term, this is a little bit adoption needs. Um, the, the, that's a lot of people don't know, but the, the, the term is special names. So Joel, what are some of the typical special needs that prospective adoptive parents may be faced with when Matt, when, when, uh, when they are matched with an expected parents and which ones are the ones that are the, the seem to be the hardest for parents too and perhaps need more education on before they make a decision whether they're the best family for this child?
Speaker 5:Well, as we mentioned before, the, um, opioid academic is big in Ohio, I hate to say, but it is. And so we have done I think three years running now. We do at least one a year of, um, a training and a workshop for everybody that's on our waiting family list that wants to attend that, you know, we have panel, we have healthcare professionals and we have, um, some people that have actually, you know, placed their children that were having some drug addiction problems but aren't anymore. Those kinds of things. And they are there. And just to do the education, um, about, you know, all the, I guess, again that whole continuum of what things would expect if the baby is born with them, whether they're addicted or positive or just the Mama's positive but the baby wasn't. So all those different things and then what that could look like into the future. We also encourage our families to, you know, check with their pediatrician and all that when they're filling out their checklist of what they're looking for, what they would accept or not accept or what they'd like to be presented for. Um, you know, to go get educated in many, many different areas. But that being probably the biggest one, mental health and you know, the physical, any drug, alcohol, exposure, addiction, those kinds of,
Speaker 3:that mirrors what we see. Uh, um, prenatal exposures, alcohol and that would absolutely include alcohol, um, or, or mental health issues and the birth parent or first-generation af after the, you know, the grandparents, birth grandparents or sisters or brothers or things such as that. And let me add that. Creating a family has a lot of resources to help fam educate families. On what it means, uh, both short and long term. Uh, what are the potential impacts? Uh, speaking of prenatal exposure as well as mental health issues, we've done a, a number of courses that are really interesting as to the heritability. You know, how, uh, how likely is a child born to a birth mom who is a, you know, bipolar, how, how, uh, how heritable that is, how heritable is a ADHD and things such as that. So we have a lot of resources, uh, on that. Um, so Aaron, speaking along these lines, how much information will adoptive parents have in deciding whether they should accept a match? Because it can be really scary because there's a lot of unknown and adoption is for life. So how much information will they have?
Speaker 4:Absolutely. Um, I can tell you that in Texas there's actually a minimum standard about basic information that we're required to share. So what we will do is go through what we call it Hashtag, which gathers basic social medical background information about this expectant mother a couple. And we'll redact that. So there's no identifying information included, but we are required to share that with the adoptive family as a baseline. From there, if we already know that the child has any sort of diagnosis, then we are also responsible for educating them about that diagnosis, putting them in touch with resources in the community. And then just as an agency, we work hard to share as many resources as possible and encourage that adoptive families be really proactive about understanding these issues ahead of placement when possible. So there are so many, both national and local resources available now that I just think families can benefit greatly from learning about those.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I agree with you. Um, and oftentimes it w we, um, we have in our head, um, how, uh, for instance that drugs are worse than alcohol or we have in our head, uh, that if a baby is born addicted, they're probably worse off than a baby who is not born dependent. Um, and so it's important to get educated, um, so that you know, you're making an informed decision, not one that's based on this one way or the other. All right. Jill, what are some factors that would influence the cost of adoption? Domestic infant adoption is not inexpensive. Um, but we talked about it being arranged. So what are some factors that influence where in the range, um, that, uh, your adoption would, would fall?
Speaker 5:Well, um, yeah, we are, we try to do everything we can do to be as transparent as possible. And so, you know, there's the definite fees that go with every adoption, but the miscellaneous ones might be, um, the birth parent legal council. I know we talked earlier about the counseling, which we do that throughout their entire pregnancy. Family offers some really great support services after it's all kind of, there was no, yeah, it's been a wonderful, wonderful transition here I have to say. And we have, um, three retreats a year for birth parents only that are run by birth mothers that are, you know, that's not the only people that are there. And those are for any, um, birth mothers throughout, you know, and they don't have to have done an option through our agency to be able to attend that. And then we also have some support group meetings. Like we call them Pizza Minas. Cause that's, it seems that what we do, we provide pizza and soft drinks and if anybody wants anything else that's on them, but, um, where they need three different locations throughout the state of Ohio. And again, those are open to anybody and everybody. But so those are great support services that are not at a cost to anyone. But the things that changed for the adoptive family is, um, if we say like grower with to, you know, a couple expec expected couple and then we might need to have two attorneys.
Speaker 3:So we should have the, the expected dad and the expect it mom each what you would have each have separate legal counsel?
Speaker 6:Yeah,
Speaker 5:most often. Yeah. Sometimes they signed paperwork and they're all on the same page and there is no need to do that. And other times everybody is saying they'd like to have their own and we agree that they should have their own.
Speaker 3:And so birth men, so adoptive families would be paying for that. Um, Aaron, any additional, uh, uh, uh, factors that you can think of that would influence the cost of adoption?
Speaker 4:Well, I think to begin, a lot of people don't understand all the work that goes into adoption. So what we're talking about here as daily staff, home study services, medical assistance, legal assistance, there's so many things that go into it. And on top of that we have to consider travel both for the family and for staff. Um, we have to consider trainings that we provide for the adoptive families, support services for, uh, birth mothers. We also here we have a posted option support program that serves every member of the adoptive triad for their lifetime. So that's another thing that is included in those fees. Um, and what's unusual for upbringing is I think it's worth noting that we also work on a sliding fee scale. Um, and our fees are based upon your gross annual household income. So that also serves used the process for us.
Speaker 6:[inaudible]
Speaker 3:[inaudible] and a, and a big one that is what we talked about before is um, uh, expectant parent expenses. And that tends to be, well, there's a couple of things in there that, that it, depending on how the agency, uh, ha, how the agency handles those fees. If you live in a state that allows a fair amount to be covered under birth parent expenses, and if you're matched earlier in the pregnancy, you will accumulate more expenses. Obviously if you're paying rent, if you're paying transportation, uh, food, uh, and you've got more months that cover that, that will add up. And it depends on how the agency handles. If the, uh, if the, uh, parents, uh, the expected parents after birth or even before, uh, changed their mind about making a placement. There are some agencies that, uh, the, once the birth parent expenses have been incurred and paid, there are, there are sunk costs. So, uh, so then you would have to that when you look at the range for adoptions that is added in. So how much did your adoption costs? Well, I had two failed adoptions. I spent 15,000 each. Um, and then that say I, that's$30,000. And I had, uh, one adoption where the mom that went through with the placement and that was 20. So now all of a sudden that's a, the higher end that's a, if somebody would say that that's a$50,000 adoption costs, which for them it certainly is. So that's where that, that families have to ask. Those are questions they need to ask what, how or birth a parent or expected parent expenses handled by the agency and what happens if the birth parents changed their mind. Um, and at that, I think that's a lot of the variants that we see comes from, uh, comes from that. So those are questions I would say. And then, hmm. Let's also talk about what influences how long people wait for an adoption match. That is a question that we certainly get a lot of. So Jill, let's start with you. What influences how long somebody will wait for an adoption match?
Speaker 5:Sure. Well, I always talk about the fact that the more open you are, the more you get presented. So then your chances, you know, increase on how quickly you would get match. However, in saying that, I would never want anyone to, you know, this is their, I always say this is your lifelong decision and that is up to you. If you, you know, I'm not trying to encourage you to be open, if that's not what you think is best for your family or you know, your community or for this child. Um, just so that you could, you know, get a baby in your home type of thing. But a good match is a good match. I mean, that's what we work for. So I think that sometimes, so I'm not, but it's just the odds. So you know, if you say the odds are that the more of your presented, the most more likely you're going to get matched faster than someone that has some pretty narrow criteria. Right?
Speaker 3:Yes. And let me just, let me, um, let me flush that out. The criteria that are most standard of, I imagine you're thinking of would be the race of the child, the prenatal exposure possibilities for the, for the infant and mental health issues. Uh, for the, uh, adoptive, I mean for the, um, uh, expectant parents. Are there other factors that open that or and and degree and openness and, and um, yeah, that's another one. Uh, how open you are to being open. Huh?
Speaker 5:Sure, sure. And you know, openness. That was the big one like five years ago saying, you know, if you're more open, cause people were still coming in saying basically like a lot of people coming in and saying, you know, I only want to do letters and pictures or island that is like, we hardly even hear that anymore, which tells us that all of our education is getting out there. So that's a good thing. Um, but I would say race, gender and special needs. Yes. You know, any you like potential, um, special needs meeting, the like what you just said, the drug and alcohol addiction or exposure, those kinds of things. Um, many mental health in the history of the, you know, expected family. So, but that's, yes, if somebody is waiting for a specific race, a specific gender, you know, all these things, you know, they're not going to get presented as often. Sometimes we don't even have all that information when we're sending out for profiles.
Speaker 3:And you raised a point that we haven't talked about and that is gender selection, gender preference. Um, Aaron, how does, um, some agencies allow adoptive parents to specify, uh, and others don't because you don't always know. Um, I mean it's not always as there has an expected mom known. Does she know what the gender of the baby, how does your agency handle that, Aaron?
Speaker 4:Well, we allow a family to identify the gender of child that I'd ideally like to adopt. And that will usually come out in the home study process. But we do tell them, we don't always know what the gender will be. We give them the opportunity to just to choose. Are you open to discussion? So if we have a birth mother who's interested in meeting you, but she doesn't know the gender or she's expecting a child of the opposite gender of what you've identified, are you open to talking about it and then we'll take it from there.
Speaker 3:Okay. And, and Jill, uh, how did it have, uh, had this caring for kids handle gender requests?
Speaker 5:That's the same. We do it very, pretty much what I said earlier too, of just making sure they understand. Um, you know, we've had those few families that maybe either adopted or gave birth to a couple of young children of the same gender and so they want a different gender, but just telling them, you know, their weight could be longer and that's fine with us. We'll do, we just want, you know, we're not trying to put judgment on that, but more of just realistic expectations. Um, not always knowing like what the gender is. Maybe they don't even want to find out what the gender is till the baby's born. And that's up to the expectant parent, you know. And then the, um, even sometimes with race not always being positive with the race is going to be. So I think it, you know, so I think those are, it's the same thing as long as they, everybody goes into it with realistic expectations and knowing that, um,
Speaker 3:you know, som if, if the gender is only known through sonograms and they're not always accurate, so you need to be aware of that risk as well. Thank you so much Jill Davies with caring for kids and Aaron Patterson with upbring adoptions. I really appreciate your, uh, your insight into, um, all things domestic infant adoption. This has been great. Thank you so much.
Speaker 4:Well, it's a pleasure. Thank you.
Speaker 5:Thank you. And let me remind everyone that the views expressed in this show are those of the guests that do not necessarily reflect the position of creating a family, our partners, our underwriters, and keep in mind that the information given in this interview is general advice to understand how it applies
Speaker 3:to your specific situation you need to work with your adoption professional. Thanks for joining us today, everyone. And I will see you next week.