What are adoptive scams and how can adoptive parents recognize them and protect themselves. What can adoptive parents do to make sure that they are also being upfront and honest with expectant parents. Host Dawn Davenport, Executive Director of Creating a Family, the national adoption & foster care education and support nonprofit, interviews Deborah Phillips, CEO of Children’s Connection Inc and Eric Freeby, an adoption attorney with Brown Pruitt who has been practicing adoption law for over a decade.
Please leave us a rating or review RateThisPodcast.com/creatingafamily
What are adoptive scams and how can adoptive parents recognize them and protect themselves. What can adoptive parents do to make sure that they are also being upfront and honest with expectant parents. Host Dawn Davenport, Executive Director of Creating a Family, the national adoption & foster care education and support nonprofit, interviews Deborah Phillips, CEO of Children’s Connection Inc and Eric Freeby, an adoption attorney with Brown Pruitt who has been practicing adoption law for over a decade.
Please leave us a rating or review RateThisPodcast.com/creatingafamily
* Note that this is an automatic transcription, please forgive the errors.
:Welcome to creating a family talk about adoption and foster care.
Speaker 2:Today we're going to be talking about adoption scams, how to recognize and how to prevent with Erik Freebie. And Debra Phillips. Eric Freebie is an adoption attorney with Brown Pruitt. He is a member of the American Academy of adoption attorneys and he serves on the board of creating a family. And we have Debra Phyllis. She is a CEO of children's Connection Inc, which is a child welfare organization in Texas providing families in crisis and childcare providers support ranging from a whole host of things, children and pregnant women, Medicare case management, nutrition programs, pregnancy support services, a parental education and adoption. And she also serves on the board of creating a family. So welcome Debra and Eric and thank you so much for being with the state to talk about a topic that I think is actually one that we don't spend enough time talking about and that is adoption for GAM. So welcome. Thank you so much for being here. Thanks for the invitation. Thanks for having us. Okay. The adoption scams I think can fall into three very general categories. So, and we're going to, we're going to approach them that way. One is that those against adoptive parents and by expected parents are supposedly a pregnant women. Those against expected couples are our birth parents. And then those done by adoption agencies or attorneys or people acting like they are an adoption agency or attorney. So we're gonna approach them in that order. All right. Uh, so we're gonna start with the adoption scams that are perpetrated against adoptive parents, primarily by, uh, expectant or supposedly expectant, uh, women or couples. So Debra, what are some typical adoption scams that, that, uh, are just, you start with one and then I'll go, I'll ask Eric to, to name another one. So what is it a typical adoption scam that you sometimes see?
Speaker 3:Well, I think the one everybody initially thinks of is a pregnant mom who just purposely deceives adoptive parents saying that she wants to place for adoption in effort to collect money. Often doing that with multiple families at the same time and then fails to place. But I do think it's really important for us to know that it's totally legal and legitimate. That birth mothers who do intend to place may change their mind at some point during their pregnancy or shortly after birth and still during that legal risk period. And that's not an adoption scam. We need to be able to allow pregnant moms to really consider their decision carefully and know that they're making the right choice for them and realize that a match isn't really an adoption until placements occur. But
Speaker 2:I'm so glad you said that because you were so right. Um, Eric, just roughly what percentage of women who are pregnant, who are, who go into it thinking that they will be placing end up deciding to, to parent and then, you know, do not place, not, not go through with the adoption.
Speaker 4:Usually by the time the cases make it to me, which is typically after they're matched, I would say at the point they're matched. Roughly three quarters are about 75% will end up going through with placement
Speaker 2:[inaudible] and Deborah, do you see that, that that percentage[inaudible]
Speaker 3:I do, but now I agree that once they're matched and have selected a family and of course for us that means you know, typically meeting the family, talking on the phone, starting a relationship that of about 75% of those we'll go ahead and get through with placement.
Speaker 2:Okay. So to be clear that what you're saying is that just because a, a, a mom decides to parent, even though she went through up to the point of making that decision, she was, you know, on board with adoption, um, that is not a fraud. So Eric explained what you, what you mean by it, what Debra was talking about them. Is this somebody coming into the adoption with no w coming in to an adoption agency or attorney matching with a family but with no intent ever of placing, but where would the money come in? Okay, so what, what is, what is she getting out of it?
Speaker 4:So in, in most states and almost every statute I'm aware it is on some level you can pay living expenses to a birth mother. Um, in Texas it has to go through a licensed child placing agency. In some states attorneys can pay it, um, or social workers. It, the laws vary from state to state, but there is in people know this that you can get a certain amount of expenses for rent, clothing, cell phone, utilities, and that's the driving. To me, that's the primary factor that someone would go into an adoption scam would be for the, that financial incentive and to make it difficult is in Texas you can't go back and ask a birth mother if she changes her mind for reimbursement of those expenses. So if you spent$5,000 on all her necessities over the past few months, you can't ask her for that money back and admit that makes it hard to prove fraud and a lot in a lot of cases because they can say they changed their mind and without something more. It is, it is difficult
Speaker 3:I think in most cases where we can, um, say that there's a fraud case that warrants being turned over to law enforcement and possible prosecution is when multiple families, adoptive families are involved with one pregnant mom and when she starts matching and having relationships with multiple people at the same time, then that deceitful intent as a little more obvious and those are the ones that truly are a scam from them from the beginning because she never intended to be able to place with all six families she might be working with and they can also, moms can also do this with adoption agencies and maybe work with two or three or four or five adoption agencies at the same time matching with families through each of those. So it's important for agencies to really screen for that as well, which most most reputable agencies will do.
Speaker 4:I worked with a number of agencies in Texas and I may have even made this call to Debra before, but I'll see a name and I'm like, wait a second. I think another agencies working with that birth mother too. And that's some of the ways that we can try and figure out if they're working with, if a birth mothers working with more than one agency.
Speaker 2:I was just thinking how would you, how would, so from an adoptive parents standpoint, what are some things that they can do that would, uh, help them if not prevent, uh, this type of fraud? At least limit the amount of money because if they're, if they're matched with an expected mom who needs living expenses. And as Eric pointed out, each state has different laws as to what is allowed. So keep that in mind. You need to check with an attorney or agency in your state to know what is allowed. But because each state is quite different, but because it, because in most states something is allowed or what's an adoptive parent to do, Deborah, to, to limit the amount of money, um, that they, that they're out in case it in case she either changes her mind for all gently or on fraudulent.
Speaker 3:Most agencies will let them set a maximum amount. I know at our agency, families set their own budget for what they want their expenses to be. Some agency set that amount for the family that usually there is a cap on it. If there's not, then that might be a red flag on is this a good agency for you? If they're just going to spend an unlimited amount of money on a mom without really knowing, I think, um, adoptive parents, the best thing they can do is choose a reliable and reputable, um, adoption professional and or attorney, depending on their state's laws to represent them in an adoption. And that's the best way to prevent a scam because that's really part of what you're paying for is that adoption agency staff's skills and experience in being able to come see if there are red flags that we should be checking out. But in particular, it's, um, for most of us that are working with moms that do come in and may be considering listing with different agencies, a lot of times they give themselves away by using almost code words that agency professionals would say. Um, for example, if we have a mom call us and she says, well, I need to know what kind of things can you help me with? And she starts asking for support, financial support in different ways. And one of the things she says is, well, can you assist me with hygiene? Well, hygiene is an item in the Texas standards that is an allowable item. And oftentimes we'll see that from an agency to agency on the budgets, hygiene items or what have you. But that's typically not how a pregnant mom would talk when she's calling in wanting help. So that kind of gives you a hint that either she's placed for adoption before and has been through this experience, or at least, you know, partially, um, got through that, through that process or that prep. She's been talking to a lot of other agencies. If she starts choosing words that social workers would you choose instead of regular pregnant people her age, um, then that might be a cause to kind of wonder. And oftentimes we will ask questions. And as a PR adoption professional who's not emotionally involved with the pregnant person, we can ask a little tougher question and a little, you know, a more direct question than an adoptive parent might feel comfortable asking. Um, but we also call around and talk to each other too often our adoption agency directors will have um, situations where we kind of wonder and we'll call some of the other larger agencies and see if they happen to be working with that mom as well.
Speaker 4:I was going to say what Debra is working with a well established agency attorney, someone that's been doing it for awhile because we just see the same red flags over and over. Like the unexpected mother needs her rent paid. You would pay directly to the landlord? Well, if they want the money to go directly to them, that's, you know, that's one of our red flags. Or if they're asking for, you know, just hunt, instead of giving them money to go to a warm on a Walmart card, they just want, you know, a few hundred dollars in cash or to try and get all of it up front. So that they may be able to just get it and leave. It's all of those sorts of little things that we see over time that when they start adding up and an adoption professional, it'll, it'll sound the alarm bells that they may need to start calling around.
Speaker 2:And I should've mentioned that creating a family has an ego guide and multimedia[inaudible] guide on how to choose an adoption agency or an adoption attorney. And it is truly turnkey me provide you questions to ask and, and, uh, all sorts of information to help you choose that. Um, all right, so the one adoption scam would be a, uh, expectant woman going into it without the intent to place in order to get money to get expenses. Her expenses covered a period of time. What about, uh, we, we sometimes hear of women who are not even pregnant but are that, but, and this is seldom with an agency. They're seldom with an agency, but very commonly a, we happens online where they contact somebody, uh, an ex, uh, adoptive of prospective adoptive parents online, um, and strike up a conversation and uh, and, and promised to place without even being pregnant. Uh, how common is that Eric?
Speaker 4:I wouldn't say it's very common, but the problem exists when they say that you can buy anything on the Internet. That's very true. You can buy positive pregnancy tests on the internet, which is typically, um, it's, uh, I guess someone that's prepared to defraud somebody. It is, that's what they'll do is they'll get online and buy a positive pregnancy test. You can get, um, medical records from an ob Gyn, things like that. So they can go get the documentation to try and lead somebody on. And it can be, it can be convincing. So I, in my end, what I call independent adoption cases where there's not necessarily a, um, there's not an agency involved that's going to go to a face to face meeting with expectant mother is, it's really important early on to get someone out there to just sit down face to face. And talk with her, it may be too early to physically tell if she's pregnant, but just having that face to face contact will flush out a lot of the fraud that exists.
Speaker 2:Okay. And you know, I ought, when I have, and I've, I've certainly seen a number of these online are people who have been taken in by these online. And it seems to me that the, the motivation is, it's almost more of an emotional fraud because generally I don't see money exchanging hands. Um, I don't, but I see a lot of conversation, a lot of emotional involvement. And I, I've often wondered if the, uh, if the women who are doing this are just seeking attention or seeking connection, I'm forced to, they could also be seeking money. So that's not saying it. But Anyway, I've certainly noticed that. Um, so Deborah, what, what are some things that people can do if they're approached by somebody online? Uh, saying that, uh, it gets a lot of adoptive parents and go online and say, hey, you know, if you know of anybody who is pregnant, uh, and is thinking about making an adoption plan, please send them my way because we're interested. They all have their website up, uh, with, with their information. This is a very common technique for adoptive parents. So if they're approached by somebody, what should they do? Deborah, let, just remember when you're notifying all your friends, have all your plans
Speaker 3:to adopt. You're also notifying the scammers too because they're out there on the Internet looking as well. So, um, there's certainly always that possibility, particularly if you're doing your own networking and trying to do an independent adoption without having the, the use of an adoption professional. And I think you're right that some of the cases really are about getting money. Um, I think it's kind of 50, 50. The others are really not only seeking attention, but it also might be women with mental health issues as well and mental illness. And so it's not only do they crave attention, but then might be very lonely. And it's really unfortunate that the people that they're victimizing are people who probably had a lot of years of struggling with infertility and kind of have their own tragic story as well. So it's not a good combination for anybody. Um, I definitely think you want simple one to sign, uh, a HIPAA release early on in the process so you can get information directly from their doctor, their ob and know that get a confirmed pregnancy tests and verify it. We always call the doctor, um, confirm online that that doctor exists first and then call the doctor's office with that release and verify that they did do a pregnancy test for that particular mom at that particular date. And it was positive or negative. What have you. Um, some doctor's offices don't keep records of that, of what pregnancy tests they do. I'm always surprised by that, but um, oftentimes unless they see the patient, again, they don't open up, up at case offer for them. And so in those cases, you know, going with them or having someone go with them to an ob or sending them back to that same one again to do a test where you get the verified results since you have that release form. Again, some of that is a little awkward for an adoptive parent to do to her smelly. You may want to hire a social worker and adoption professional just on a, on an hourly basis to help you with some of that initial screening stuff, even if you're not gonna be in their program. Some agencies are open to that, of course, not all, but that might be worth, you know, paying a little bit of help, you know, on the verification process. And some doctors will question individuals wanting other individual's health records more than an agency who generally don't have doctors having a problem with it as long as we have a valid release form signed. But I have heard that, um, individuals having difficulty getting that information from doctor's offices, which is probably pretty understandable. Yeah. But Eric, if, if, if somebody is trying to do an independent adoption, they're going to, oh, meaning that they're trying to, uh, the prospective adoptive parents trying to find
Speaker 2:expectant moms who may be considering adoption on their own, but even then they will eventually have to have an adoption attorney, will they not? So couldn't that be a, a, um, um, a protective factor that you can go ahead and get your adoption attorney hired and that person can start doing some of the, um, the, the, the hard questioning and, and verifying.
Speaker 4:And that's what I usually tell adoptive parents is it's better to get an adoption attorney early on and go ahead and go through these steps, get your background information from birth parents and things like that. And then, you know, if we need to sit a few months, eh, you know, between initially starting in birth, that's perfectly fine. But if we come in right before birth is supposed to happen, it really condenses everything that we have to do. And it makes it a lot harder for us to get a good feel as to what's going on as opposed to having been in the case for a few months. So for sure it definitely makes sense to get an adoption professional on board and the attorney on board because even in cases I've had where I'm, some of those red flags have gone up, I will get a social worker contract with an agency, something like that to where get birth mother her own attorney, uh, to go out and, and meet with her.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And there, there are two red flags that I often see and I don't know, I'm curious to see if you guys have seen this as well. Anytime I hear of an, uh, usually I hear from the, uh, prospective adoptive parents who are coming saying, oh, I've got the best news. There is a mom who's having twins. And as soon as I hear the word twins, I go, yeah, well that twins seem to be, you know, often if you're going to scam, you might as well scan big. I don't know what it, is that something that you see as well?
Speaker 4:Twins seem to be,
Speaker 3:yes. I had never, I definitely think that's a code word for this is probably the scam. Um, yeah, twins happen in adoption, but very, very rarely. The reason we have so many twins is because of all of our, um, you know, fertility treatments and things we have now. And moms that are not wanting to have a pregnancy certainly aren't going through those. Our twins are pretty great. And adoption.
Speaker 2:Yeah. That were just in general.
Speaker 4:I was just going to say twins are like the Unicorn of the[inaudible]. Exactly. It happens, but maybe a couple times a year that I'll see it. So it doesn't happen very often.
Speaker 2:Yes, exactly. Um, and the other thing, go ahead.
Speaker 3:Derek's talking from the basis of across multiple agencies he works with and in my agency, you know, we might have twins every three years or four years, five years,
Speaker 4:a few hundred adoptions.
Speaker 3:We may see a couple of sets of twins. Yeah. It's pretty rare.
Speaker 2:And another a red flag that, that I see is a, uh, expectant mom who does not follow through when the prospective adoptive parents to her that, that she needs to contact or respond to phone calls or texts from her attorney or agency. So that's another, that's another red flag. Eric, do you see that one as well?
Speaker 4:Yeah, we do. And that's not going to doctor's appointments for sure is that's always either that's always a good sign of one that, you know, they, they may be scamming, but two that they also may be really struggling with their decision. So I would say those things are definitely signs that there's, there's trouble there. There's potential trouble on the horizon
Speaker 2:regardless if it's a scam. Yeah, good point. Cause it may not be. Um, another, uh, and again, I don't know if this is the word scam is the correct one, but um, moms who say that the birth father is an identified and yet they do know who they are, who he is, but not identifying him because either one, for a number of reasons, I actually don't know all the reasons at Debra. Thoughts on that? And what are some of the reasons that a demeaning grace? Yeah. Okay.
Speaker 3:There are many reasons, but, and sometimes it's a legitimate reason if he's acting out violently against her, um, she, maybe she's been in a domestic violence shelter. Maybe there's, um, police reports that document the violence that's occurred. She might truly be afraid of him and it might be a really dangerous time during that point of the relationship when she separated from him, then going back and saying, oh, by the way, I'm pregnant and I'm placing your baby for adoption might be a really dangerous thing to say to him face to face. Sure. And so that's probably the most common reason we see. But it could be just, she's embarrassed. She didn't want to tell him. Uh, we've had moms say that they don't want to mess up his life because he's in college or what have you. And so they don't want to inconvenience him. You know, there's all kinds of crazy reasons. Most of the time. Um, when a mom says, oh, he'll never sign, he'll never sign. We say, well, let us talk to him. And they s they're more than willing to participate in the adoption plan, usually not actively. Usually they're signing papers and, and that kind of thing, but not really, um, following up with relationships with adoptive parents. But dads are a lot more willing than moms give them credit for me. And sometimes I think it's too that mom doesn't want to know how readily he would dismiss her and dismiss the baby. And so that, that actually creates some, you know, real negative feelings as well. Um, and, and hurt her. And so I think for all those reasons, that's why they may say that, um, if it's truly a life threatening issue, then certainly you don't want to push that info out. But on the other hand, we really need to try to explore exactly who is the dad, where was the, um, was the maybe conceived, you know, what state things like that and get some background information that again, you know, somebody who's not as emotionally involved in it can ask little more pointed and direct questions. Okay. Sometimes adoptive parents don't really want to know. They would rather have an unidentified father because the, in their mind it makes things easier for them or it makes it less likely that somebody else will object to the adoption. So Eric, why is it important talking to adoptive parents or prospective adoptive parents, why is it important that they should want the birth father to be identified?
Speaker 4:It's really twofold. One is that they can get his background information, his health, social, genetic, educational history to know and not if he's allergic to strawberries, you may want to know that because the baby may be allergic. Just little things like that all the way to, you know, larger diseases and things like that. So that's one reason it's really important to, if you can't get that background information from a birth father. Um, the other reason is typically in most states, if a birth father, typically, especially if it's not what we call a legal father, in the case of a newborn, that's typically someone that's not married to the birth mother. So if they're not illegal father, usually they can sign pre-birth and what they sign is irrevocable and he can't take it back or and do it. So you've kind of already checked off that birth father box and it's not something that you're necessarily going to have to stress stress about after baby gets here. Another way to, um, if he doesn't sign a, if this alleged father doesn't sign, then there's this two different ways to kind of terminate rights. In some states you have to go out there and try and find him and serve him and that's going to drag on the termination of parental rights or adoption proceedings after birth. In some states, if they don't, if birth fathers don't register with the paternity registry, then they're not entitled to notice of the termination proceedings. The problem with that is most states registries can't be searched until about a month after birth, so you're kind of hanging up there and legal limbo for a month after birth. So it's by not getting them to sign ahead of time. I wouldn't say that you're putting the adoption in jeopardy, but you're definitely putting yourself in some legal limbo stress or a month or so or you know, whatever the state's timeframe is after birth.
Speaker 2:You know, and I would also say having, not having fairly recently talked with a birth father who was the unwitting victim of, of this, where the, um, with the mother, the expectant woman did not tell him. And it was devastating for him. He wanted to parent, um, and, uh, our, he would have parented very much so and was against the adoption and it was devastating. So honestly, it's the right thing to do. You don't want to take a child away from somebody who isn't a willing participant in making that decision. Um, and I don't think that's terribly common in the sense that I, I think Deborah, you're probably right, most instances that I've seen the, uh, birth fathers or the fathers at that point, cause it was pre-birth would, would be voluntarily doing it, but if not, it's just, it's not right. You're taking a child away from somebody. And, uh, so for that reason as well. And I'd also say that for your child, this is the story your child is going to have. And a, an unidentified birth father is, is as hard for children, not all children, but for some children that's hard to, that's a hard thing for them to, to live with. And there's a lot of unanswered questions. Um, so for just for your child in case your child wants to know their genetic history, their medical history, as Eric said, uh, even later in life. Uh, so that's another reason I think it's important to, um, to push back on the unidentified if, if possible. Um, all right, well with this one is not necessarily a scam, but, uh, how common is it for expectant moms to not be fully open about prenatal exposure to alcohol and drugs? Um, and I like to like to get both of your, your opinions on that. Uh, and then, uh, and then what can parents do about that? Eric, if you could start just how often is that something that, is that a problem that you see very often?
Speaker 4:It can be early on. Is the pregnancy progresses and they get closer to delivery. If you kind of know at that point that if you know, if it's not just recreational use, it's, you know, the something they're addicted to that they're taking on a daily basis. They know when they go to the hospital that the hospital's going to do a drug test and everybody's going to find out eventually. And so we'll see, and Debra, correct me if I'm wrong, but what we'll usually see an uptick of oes. I'm also doing this a little bit closer to birth and, but I don't necessarily think it's trying to be deceitful as a lot of times it's just, it's something they're just really not proud of, that they don't want to share
Speaker 2:or they're afraid that somebody won't choose them. They will reject the match and they, uh, so that's another reason
Speaker 3:it's also illegal. And so they're fried, they're kind of cute. Report it, you know, that we would turn them if they have other children. Yeah. So I don't want to say, I mean, even if they wouldn't mind telling us, they're still afraid that, you know, they might get arrested or we might call CPS on them, you know, children's protective services if I have other kids in the home, um, as we're working with the mom, of course we're going to the doctor with her and we're asking for her to have a drug test. And so I do think the timing, you know, early on you might have a few people that were fudging a little bit, but as you start going to doctor's appointments and you start asking for drug tests, that information comes out. And then it's important for adoptive parents to not just react without really doing some research first, you know, check it out and see, talk to someone who's really a specialist in, um, substance abuse as particularly for, um, that particular substance and in prenatal situations and see, you know, really where the risk factors and should you un-match or not, instead of just having a knee jerk reaction, oh, she didn't tell us she's lied to us a better drug use. We're done. Because, you know, we do need to be forgiving of people's weaknesses. And you know, some of this is not, if it's true addiction, she doesn't really have control over stopping as easily as you might readily think. And, uh, it might still be a good adoption situation, um, that we need to do a little research before we just make a decision.
Speaker 2:And creating a family has a number of courses to do just that. Help educate people on what are the, both the short and the longterm impact of alcohol as well as drugs in specific drugs, including opiates and Methadone and other meth and other specific drugs so that you can understand what are the true impacts, not what you imagine they are and, and then make a decision on if you're the right family for that child
Speaker 3:and you bring up another interesting point with alcohol, it's very difficult to determine alcohol use during the pregnancy because it goes away so much quicker. It's easier to hide at Canada into canopy year. Um, you know, you drink it and by the time the worker comes the next day doesn't smell like you've been drinking beer. Um, the same thing at the doctor's office, unless you come in literally drunk, a doctor would never test you for alcohol. And the testing process is more difficult than testing for drugs even though the alcohol might be worse for the baby in Utero than the drugs might be. So, um, sometimes adoption is just a walk in faith and that you're trusting that the other party is, is doing, is going to do what say they're going to do and that you're going to do what you say you're going to do. Alcohol kind of goes into that category. The best thing you can do is have a really good relationship with your birth mom as you're working with her during the match, um, and keeping close contact so you kind of know what she's doing day to day and if it's a stressful day or not and you know, what are her recreational activities and things like that, that she'll feel a little more comfortable sharing with the adoptive parents. Um, if she feels like she has a good relationship with them
Speaker 4:in this kind of reinforces the point of it's good to have an adoption professional involved. The adoptive parents don't want to be at a doctor's appointment and say, oh, we need to get a drug test for police. It's just, it's a hard thing to, it's a hard thing to do. But someone who is does this day in and day out with birth parents or expectant parents, expectant mothers can, you know, they, they can say, oh, we also need to do this. And it just goes a little bit easier when there's some, when there's a third party, they're doing that so it doesn't jeopardize your relationship.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Even if you find the birth mom on your own, you need to, it's, it's extremely helpful. Uh, and at some point you're going to have to be hiring a professional anyway to finalize the adoption and it's extremely helpful to have another person running interference and doing some of them. As you say, the more awkward things. Yeah, great point.
Speaker 5:That creating a family show is underwritten by the jockey being family foundation. Their mission is to strengthen adoptive families through post adoption services. Um, which of course is, you know, music to my ears. And one of the ways they support adoptive families is through their free backpack program. This program provides newly adopted children with their own backpack, personalized with their initials and filled with a adorable little fare and a sweet little blanket. And inside also is a tote bag with parenting resources for their parents. And this is free to both the agency as well as to the parents. Uh, so if you would like one you need to talk to you in your agency is not already a backpack program member, talk to him and tell him to go to the jockey being family.com site. Click on the word backpack and then sign up and
Speaker 2:you two could get your own adorable backpack, bear tote, bag and blanket. All right, so now we're talking about this one. Is, is truly a[inaudible]. And Deborah, you pointed this out, this is not fraud. It is totally okay for an mom to change her mind. Um, and, and depending on when she places in the pregnancy, you know, it may be more likely than not. So what are some of the warning signs? Again, this is not fraud are, are an adoption scam, but I think it is something that a lot of parents wonder about. What are some of the warning signs that you see that an unexpected woman or our spectrum mom, this[inaudible] wavering in her decision to place our is, is feeling uncomfortable with the whole adoption plan. Eric, you want to start us off on that one?
Speaker 4:Really it's communication. Uh, the first one of the first signs is w still just drop off, drop off. Communication is definitely one of the red flags. Um, and then this isn't always a red flag, but it can be from time to time is when expected. Mothers don't want to see baby don't want anything to do with baby it. They just want the baby to be born and go to another room with the, with adoptive parents. Now, sometimes that's what birth mothers need, but sometimes it is a red flag because if to really be comfortable with their decision, I see a lot as they really have to love that child to then place that child. And a lot of times when they just have that disconnect there, it seems like they struggle a lot more later on and they have a tougher time grieving which results in them coming back from time to time trying to contest the adoption or termination of parental rights. Um, some other things that we'll see is just lying about little things. Um, you know, doctor, like we said, doctors appointments is a good one. Uh, changing cell phones and not giving the cell phone number, you know, the new cell phone number thing, things like that.
Speaker 2:Debra would have some that you have seen.
Speaker 3:Well, I think the same ones are pretty common. And just having a mom who all of a sudden has a lots of excuses for why she can't go to the doctor. And lots of excuses for why she can't meet with her work or why she can't talk to adoptive families on Sunday evenings anymore when I've been doing it for a couple of months. You know, that Kinda thing. And just lots and lots of excuses. Um, but sometimes moms really don't know if they can sign until it gets right and to time of signing. And so I've seen a few moms who've actually, you know, said to the adoptive parents, this is your baby. Um, I want them to have a life with you. I'm saying about a baby. But then before they get the relinquishment signed, one case in particular comes to mind where she had about 30 family members who found out she was in the hospital and they all showed up and she really, in the last hour before it was time to sign her relinquishment document came face to face with, are you going to be designed by your entire extended family or are you going to allow this child to go with one of your uncles who suddenly came forward? Um, and that's what you chose to do. And now I think it really, in that case, wasn't her choice necessarily. It wasn't what she wanted for that baby, but it was something she wound up feeling like she had to do. And so sometimes there are a lot of outside influences on a mom, especially in the hospital stay, you know, that last view, um, those first few days after delivery that mom didn't anticipate, you know, having, having come up and that might change her mind about placement. Um, and I think it's, it's normal for adoptive parents to want to think of that as a scam because they've lost money and they've lost that chance and opportunity to raise that child themselves. And it's very painful and painful combined with our pocket book has been hurt, um, as well. Makes it seem like a scam and it's real common for adoptive parents to just instantly decide she's been scheming them since the get go. Everything she ever told them was ally and, um, that she just purposely was there detective money when that really is not the case.
Speaker 2:You know, I also see that, uh, yeah. And I agree with you that often that usually that is not the case. Changing your mind is, is a, is a, um, is a, is not, is not fraudulent. Um, I also see as a red flag when she has, uh, the expected mom has not shared with her family about the adoption plans or if her mom, um, so the, uh, the birth grandmother, um, is against the adoption. Do you see that as well Eric? Is that also a warning sign that you've seen? I see a lot of
Speaker 4:expected mothers. It'll still go through with the plan even though they're, their parents may not know, but to me when they're, especially with younger expected parents or, um, in the case of an older child, if the biological, typically the biological grandparents don't know, that is usually the first place that the adoption's going to get contested. Um, I would say most of the contested adoptions we see, I'd say majority of them start when the biological grandparents find out about the adoption. So[inaudible] may not in my practice I see it more that way, that it's a big red flag for the adoption becoming contested at. But,
Speaker 2:and I see it though, I think both ways about changing her mind because when she gives birth, the her mother finds out, uh, and uh, and either and, and, and then she honestly, she may figure that she, that the, the, the mom didn't realize that her, her mother would be there to be supportive. So all of a sudden now she has a support network that she didn't realize. So it can be things just as easy as that.
Speaker 3:I think one red flag is if she's not telling her doctor is if the doctor doesn't know and it's late in the pregnancy and she still hasn't told her doctor that she's placing, I think that really showed some ambivalence that she's not really sure she's going to go through with this. So she doesn't want the doctor to know about it. Interesting. Yeah, that makes sense.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I have not seen that one as much, but yeah, that makes good sense. Okay. Alright. Any other, um, adoption scams against adoptive parents that, that either of you can think about?
Speaker 3:I think we've really covered the basics of the mom who is pregnant, um, but trying to match with multiple people as well as the one that's not pregnant at all for either financial gain or emotional reasons that those really, that really seems to capture the majority of scammers that are perpetrated on the part of the expectant parent.
Speaker 4:And I would throw in to trust your gut. You, there's not, a lot of times there's not the one piece of paper emails, you know, record that you can point to and say, oh, she's definitely scamming me. It all starts with that gut feeling of, I need to look at this more. So I would say, you know, trust your gut. Don't necessarily just be so fearful that you're going to upset somebody that you put you and your family in a bad,
Speaker 2:right. And then also protect yourself financially. Um, uh, pregnant and matching with, uh, a, an expectant mom very early in the pregnancy, uh, exposes you to more risk financially depending on how your adoption agency does. The, uh, the, uh, expectant parent expenses. I mean some, some agencies cover that and some agencies expect parents to cover that in. Some agencies do kind of a hybrid. But a, if you match with somebody who is, you know, 10 weeks pregnant, you've got a long pregnancy. So, so a lot of expenses potentially and a lot of time for uh, the mom to change her mind. So that's a way that you can protect yourself as an adoptive parent. Okay. So we've talked about how adoptive parents can be the victim of, of fraud, but lets also, it's not just adoptive parents, uh, birth parents, uh, can also are unexpected parents, uh, can be the, uh, the victims as well. And the perpetrators, uh, would be the adoptive parents. Uh, Debra, what, what situation comes to mind where you see that adoptive parents are the ones who, whether or not it's actually a scam? That's probably not the right word, but certainly fraud or not being honest.
Speaker 3:Well, I think the obvious one is people that really know that I don't want openness, that they want as little contact with the pregnant mom as possible. But they realize that the landscape now is that birth moms really do want to have some kind of contact and that's primarily the reason some people placed for adoption as opposed to having an abortion is so that can you know, see the child grow up and know that the child is doing well. And so parents that will say, Oh yes, we'll be open. We'll come see you every year. We'll send you pictures and letters then head off all contact the minute the adoption is online. But I think I've seen over the years adopted parents that want to misrepresent saying lie is a little bit harsh, but people like what choose to represent, misrepresent their own, um, maybe their own attendance at church and how frequently they're there because it's a birth mom who wants someone that's active in their church and maybe the couple's not, but they say they are anyway. Or maybe they misrepresent when the adoptive parents or mom plans to go back to work. Maybe saying, oh sure she'll be a stay at home mom if that's what you're looking for. And knowing that she's going to go right back to work, you know, a week or two after the baby's born, um, at misrepresenting their health status. You know, not sharing if they have a diagnosis of cancer or something really serious. Not saying that I need to know every, you know, that, that an expected mom would need to know every thing about your entire health record, but any current diagnoses that you have that might be more longer lasting illness, something like that. Um, or maybe we know of a job change. You know, adoptive dad has lost his job that we're still representing that he's working because we don't want it to look bad, that he doesn't have a job right now or that they know they're going to move away. And Mom really wants somebody that lives close or doesn't look close and they know that there was a move. So there's all kinds of things that adoptive parents can just misrepresent in an effort to. Um, I want to match with you and I don't want to miss this opportunity for a baby even though I'm really not what expect a moms one. Yeah. Eric thoughts on that one?
Speaker 4:Sure. Some ways I'll see it as we're adoptive parents. We'll be working with multiple birth parents or expectant parents kind of doubling down hoping that one of them works out and maybe both of them work out and then they're not able to adopt both. And that's a very unfortunate situation and that doesn't happen often. I think I've only seen it a, you know, once, twice a handful of times. Um, the other thing to consider is with technology and 23 and me and ancestry, at some point when your adopted child grows up, if they want to find their birth parents, it's not going to be very hard for them to do it, especially 18 years from now. And adoptive parents need to realize that when your child contacts their birth parents, the birth parents may very well likely say that we had an agreement for your, you know, I wish I could have kept up with you. I didn't, they didn't send their pictures and letters and do what they were supposed to in that, you know, that can be very traumatizing and has some pretty big negative effects on a family. So just to realize that just because you, it's gonna come back up or likely come back up at some point in the future, it's not something that you're, that you might be able to hide.
Speaker 2:I am so glad you raised that. The idea that means the reality is your child, if they choose. And most, and I suspect most will, we are moving into an area where we're already there, but we're going to meet where we're, we're marching very fast, even further into an area of both, uh, of easily finding out who your birth parents are. And so ultimately your birth, the, your child's, uh, biological parents are going to be saying what you did. So you need to know that your child is going to find out. So that is certainly something to, uh, to consider in two thoughts. One with, on the openness one, it seems like people will say, yes, yes, I'm agreeing with you Deborah, that, that, that, okay. So we'll have to have to agree to openness. So yes, I agree to openness, but the minute it gets hard and I guarantee it will get hard, something will come up and the minute it gets hard, they back out and they say, no, you know, this is no longer something I'm willing to do. Um, and that's wrong too, because when you agree to openness, you gotta agree to some of the messiness, you know, that's just, you know, it's, it's a different, there's another family member in a sense and, and there will be trouble. Uh, and the other thing I see that parents are not open about is if they are currently in fertility treatment are, or planning on going back into fertility treatment. Um, or even, um, the, not all that long ago, uh, I had heard about a situation where they, the mom was pregnant and, uh, she wasn't sure whether to tell the birth mom because she was afraid of the birth mom. And the, the, the, the, um, the not the birth mom, in this case it was the expectant mom because the placement had not taken place and she was afraid that the, uh, mom would back out. So, um, that's probably an extreme, but those are other things that people are sometimes not honest about. Okay. Um, anything else? I think we've pretty much covered all the things that, uh, adoptive parents can do to be dishonest or fraudulent to expect an our birth parents. Uh, now this, this last one is, uh, the one that, that talking about acts by adoption agencies, our adoption attorneys that are people who are pretending to be, um, that will harm either, uh, adoptive parents or birth parents. So, uh, Eric, you, you had, uh, one the actually I had not heard about, um, as a, as a possibility.
Speaker 4:This is Reese. This is new a, I haven't seen this until this year and I've seen it a couple of times in the surrogacy context and once in the adoption context where scammers will create fake like fake adoption attorney or make adoption agency websites to where you go on it, they'll even steal information from other attorneys or agency's websites to make it look legitimate and you know, the lure you in eventually gets you to make a payment and then they're gone. And I don't, I, I've only seen it, I've only seen it out there I think once or maybe twice for adoption. Um, but yeah, and it was reported to the authorities when they, when they found out about it, but they were, you know, being online it was easy for them to just disappear. And one of the, one of the things to be leery of is whenever it seems like these people will always ask for money orders, um, and then they don't also, they don't have a lot of independent reviews outside those that they put on their website.
Speaker 2:So if, if they won't take a credit card, um, then, or other forms of payment and asks for a money order, that should be a red flag on that one. Okay. Um, Debra, do you have, uh, ideas of how, uh, and again, I'm, I'm not gonna use the word scam because I think that that's too limiting, but ways that, uh, adoption agencies or adoption professionals, attorneys or whatever, are less than fully honest with either, uh, adoptive parents or expectant parents.
Speaker 3:Well, I've seen, um, adoption professionals that are not licensed in some states are still legal to operate that, um, really pushed parents. You know, I have, um, the perfect one for you, and maybe there's five different criteria that she doesn't meet that or something that the adoptive parents really wanted, you know, or are pushing somewhat pushing a birth mom onto an adoptive parent. Um, even though they know she's using illegal drugs and the adoptive parents did not want that, or, um, that kinda thing really, you know, pushing them to change what they initially came in requesting as the boundaries to kind of stay within on trying to match them. And, uh, giving, you know, a lot of, uh, nice fuzzy words along with it. Oh, she's just perfect for you. She just looks so beautiful and I know her baby's going to be really pretty and you know, those kinds of things to try to lure an adoptive parent into making a decision that would not be what they would normally make.
Speaker 2:Another one that I see is selling openness to expect it parents, but then when they're talking with adoptive parents, uh, dismissing or are diminishing the importance of openness, uh, at selling them that the telling the birth parents are they expected parents that they would, they can ask for meetings, they can, um, uh, have letters, have facetime, things like this. But when they're talking with the adoptive parents, they say things like, you can just simply send to, um, you know, once a year, send one picture, you know, at Christmas and that's all that's going to be necessary and send it through us. And don't share your name, don't share your address, don't share your, uh, uh, your, your, uh, your telephone number or anything like that. So, um, in a way around that is to look at, um, the websites and see if what a agencies are saying to the, um, on the, the, the tab that goes for birth for adoptive effort expected parents is saying something a different than it's saying to the, um, uh, for the adoptive parents. So that's one. Um, one thing that I see that seems a dishonest, um, from a money standpoint, Eric, uh, things that agencies, uh, can do that, that, uh, um, uh, that either are giving a, a false idea of how much, usually a low idea of how much it's going to cost, uh, knowing full well that there's a lot of expenses that are going to need to also be incurred. So thoughts on that.
Speaker 4:It's typically early on, very early on is the agency will, Eh, when they match you to a list of what, you know, birth mother's going to require it as far as expenses. Now that may fluctuate or change a little bit, but typically we don't see, you know, giant shifts in that. So I would tell adoptive parents to try and get an idea from the agency of what expenses, you know, they're going to, they're going to be expected to pay early on.
Speaker 2:[inaudible]. Right. And, and if, uh, if it sounds too good to be true, it probably is. Right. And that that would go for timing on how long, how long it takes to have a match as well as how much it's, how much it's going to cost. Yeah. Are there any other things that you have seen that agencies that, that adoptive parents should be or an expected parents should be wary of? Uh, when choosing an agency,
Speaker 3:I've worked with several families that have worked with the adoption marketing companies. Um, it's how you're collecting your books and sharing them to adopted parents that hit their website and say they're looking, sometimes they'll even put adoptive parents on their website. Um, I'm, I've looked at some of those websites in particular. I know one of them compared how reasonable their process were compared to an agency adoption. But the point I never made that's always true is once they match you that mom will need to have an agency or an in her state and you will need an agency or an attorney in your state to help you with finalization at least same with the interstate compact, um, paperwork and stuff forth. So, um, in addition to paying the marketing company, you still have to pay somebody in her state and somebody in your state. So your adoption winds up being about three times as expensive as it might typically be. Um, but there is being pictured on their website as if this is a cheaper alternative to having an adoption agency.
Speaker 4:And I will say some adoption marketing companies do a good job. Yes, they'll, they'll, the adoptive parents will come to me and they'll know that I'm expecting these expenses and that's generally what it is. And then there's the times where adoptive parents believe that they're using an adoption agency. They'll call the marketing company their agency. And then when they come to me and realize that, oh, we're going to need an attorney in Texas, we're going to need an attorney in Nebraska. It's going to cost thousands of dollars more. They're not very happy at that point. Um, and sometimes they've spent most all their, you know,$30,000 on this marketing company to get matched. Not knowing that these expenses.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So, so exactly how can, what can adoptive parents do to protect themselves from that
Speaker 4:is to ask the question, ask them if, if they're an adoption marketing company, if they're going to, if their job is to just make that match or are they going to be with them through the entire process and to, to talk to other families that have been through the process with that, with that marketing company to, to make sure or to make sure that it is what, what they, what they're at. Right.
Speaker 2:That's one of the suggestions we make in our ego guide for how to choose and adoption agency or adoption attorney is to ask for specific references, uh, in the last year. Um, whoever you're going to use. And then, and those are some of the questions to ask. Um, um, exactly how long is it, did it take, uh, what was the amount you were quoted? It was at the same amount. Did you have to hire an attorney after the fact? That type of that type of information. So, yeah, great advice.
Speaker 4:And I would, I would say to read the material that you're given, I see a lot of people just don't, you know, you'll, someone will say, well it was in the material that I gave you that you signed off that you read. And usually this isn't what I'm talking is what I'm talking about. Or you know, things that explained the agencies or marketing company's processes and things. And usually they're written in a pretty easy to read language. It's not like an attorney wrote it and made it hard for most of the time, but just right. I guess I can dog on on my profession but I'm is to, you know, the, they're expecting you to read that material and I say sit down and read through it and ask questions and just become more educated and just becoming more educated will help prevent any confusion or potential scams, anything like that.
Speaker 5:Let me stop for a moment and thank two of our partners. Um, this show is well as all the resources that we provide at creating a family would not happen without the generous support of our partners and these are agencies that believe in our mission of providing unbiased and accurate information to pre adoptive and post adoptive parents. One such partner is Vista del Mar. They are a licensed nonprofit adoption agency with over 65 years of experience helping to create families. They offer home study only services as well as full service, infant adoption, international adoption and foster to adopt programs. We also have spent cheapen, they're an adoption agency in New York City and they are currently recruiting adopted adults in age 21 and older. Just serve as volunteer mentors for their adoption. The mentorship program. It is a great program. The mentors serve as role
Speaker 2:models to encourage the mentees, the adoptees, the younger adoptees to ask questions to explore their identities and help them develop healthy self esteem. And the interesting thing is that not only do the mentees benefit, but the mentors find it rewarding and engaging as well as they, they also learn and grow further in their adoption journey. So it's a great program. If you live in the New York, New Jersey or Connecticut area, please contact spins chape and.org and uh, ask about their mentorship program. All right, so I think we have, we have covered the waterfront, so to speak, of all sorts of adoption scams. And this is not to frighten you, this is to empower you. Um, there are things you can do. There are warning signs and, and, and especially that when you're choosing an a professional to work with you, um, it asks these questions. Your professional is there to, they are experienced, they know what to look for. They have seen these red flags, um, and they, they know the questions to ask. So much of this can be avoided by choosing an agency or an attorney, uh, to work with you and walk alongside you to help you figure, figure all this out. That's what they are. Therefore, thank you so much, Eric Freebie and Debra Phillips for being with us today to talk about adoption scams. I, I very much appreciate your, your presence. Uh, Eric, if people wanted to get more information, uh, from you, can you tell them how they would reach you?
Speaker 4:Sure. The easiest way is it probably just go on our website. It's adoption,
Speaker 2:[inaudible] dot com adoption, bps and Brown pruitt.com. Okay. Debra, how would people reach you if they would like more information about you? Our CCI, him probably a website. It's children's connections.org. Both children's and connections have assets on them. Okay. Yeah.
Speaker 5:All right. And the views expressed in this show are those of the guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of creating a family. Our partner, our underwriters, and keep in mind that the information given in this interview is general advice to understand how it applies to your specific situation. You need to work with it.
Speaker 2:Adoption Professional. Thanks for joining us today and I will see you next week.