How can we help our foster or adopted children heal from past trauma or loss. Our guest is Carol Lozier, a licensed clinical social worker with over thirty years experience counseling children, teens and adults in the issues of trauma, and adoption and foster care. Ms. Lozier has published four books, including one of my very favorites, The Adoptive and Foster Parent Guide.
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How can we help our foster or adopted children heal from past trauma or loss. Our guest is Carol Lozier, a licensed clinical social worker with over thirty years experience counseling children, teens and adults in the issues of trauma, and adoption and foster care. Ms. Lozier has published four books, including one of my very favorites, The Adoptive and Foster Parent Guide.
Please leave us a rating or review RateThisPodcast.com/creatingafamily
* Note that this is an automatic transcription, please forgive the errors.
Speaker 2:welcome to creating a family talk about adoption and foster care. Today we're going to be talking about helping children heal from past trauma and loss with Carol Lozier. She is a licensed clinical social worker. She has spent 30 years counseling children, teens and adults in issues of trauma, adoption and foster care. She has published four books, including one of my very favorites, which is the adoptive and foster parent guide. Thank you so much Carol, for joining us. This is a topic that, uh, I think you and I both feel a lot of passion around, so thanks for joining us. Thank you. You're right. I do have a lot of passion. As you can tell, 30 years is a long time. It, it makes me feel really old while I'm right there with you. Okay. So just pretend that the, let's just say that a long time, but not 30 years. We'll just, alright, so I want to start by talking about, I think that people don't necessarily th let's be honest, trauma is a buzz word. Now we hear every day that we are trauma, trauma, a trauma informed practice, trauma. This trauma that, but I think that sometimes, uh, we as parents don't really know what trauma is. I mean, yes, if a child has been bruised and beaten black and blue that we associate with trauma and clear that it is trauma. Let's, let's talk about generally how broad do we define trauma?
Speaker 3:Oh, well, they're basically, the way I think about it, the way I've learned over the years is there's two types of trauma. So there's what we call big t trauma, just like the capital t and that's the kind of trauma you just mentioned. Like, you know, if a child has been physically abused and there's bruises, clearly that's trauma. And even people who might be skeptical of other kinds of traumas would say, yes, I agree that's a trauma. So any kind of physical, sexual, emotional abuse that's easily seen or agreed upon by most people, that's definitely big t trauma. And then there's also like natural disasters. Um, unfortunately, like we hear a lot about school shootings, so you know, those are the capital t traumas that everyone easily can note as such. Then we also have what we call the little t trauma. So little t trauma is um, and, and this captures big t traumas as well. So things that feel overwhelming and upsetting to a child are the little t traumas or big t, but the little t trauma. The difference here is these are smaller, upsetting, overwhelming events, situations that occur with repetition. So that could be bullying, you know, maybe a one time event where a kid calls another kid in name or you know, knocks them over. Like is that yes, is that trauma? Probably not. But when it happens every day or it happens over and over and over, yes, that is trauma. Well, I think most of our kids, um, who have been at least adopted at an older age or had been in the foster care system, I have probably experienced what you're calling big t trauma. Um, in addition, how, where do you fit in neglect? Because I think that, um, I certainly hear a lot of parents say, well, it was, you know, he wasn't abused. He was just neglected. So where does, does a neglect fit within the big and little t's? Well, neglect is something that occurs with repetition over time and that's how it becomes neglect is that, you know, the child wasn't cared for in some way either emotionally, physically, medically, and so over time that is a big t trauma and neglect can be easily just as harmful as other kinds of abuse. Yeah, I it really can. And I think we, we discount it because it doesn't leave a visible bruise, but it certainly bruises a child's psyche because children are so dependent upon the adults in their lives for care. Solutely so how does trauma and let's, we'll, we'll stick with that a, the more big t type traumas, how does it impact children and why are children more vulnerable? Gosh, it impacts kids in so many ways. I mean, you know, it impairs their attachment first and foremost, which clearly they need in all areas throughout their life. They need to have secure, healthy attachments. So it impairs their attachment. It can impair their physical health. Um, and that's where you'll see a lot of kids with sensory kinds of issues, coordination problems, medical issues. It impairs emotion regulation where kids have a difficult time going from calm to upset and bringing themselves back down to calm. You know, a lot of the kids I work with in a lot of the, um, Kiddos who've had any kind of neglect or trauma in their past, they start to get upset and then we'll get stuck in that emotion and they will have tantrums or meltdowns, whatever the family calls it on the one end. But clearly on the other end of the spectrum, you can also have kids who shut down and who can't kind of get unstuck from that shutdown either. So they'll refuse to talk, they'll refuse to look at you. That's difficulty with emotion regulation too. And I think people forget that. They think meltdowns are what we call the problem with emotion regulation. But it can be either. Yeah. Yeah, that makes good sense. So the other thing that happens for Kiddos who experienced trauma is cognitive abilities. So you'll see kids trauma will also affect speech. Um, and other things cognitively. I just wanted to add that one of the issues, probably the most common question we get from parents is, is this behavior that they're seeing in their child normal developmental behavior are normal just because of that child's particular temperament or is this behavior based in trauma? I mean, because kids do differ, I mean different kids, I mean different age children will respond to a stimuli, different ways and different kids, just the way they are genetically made will respond differently. So how can parents tell if the behavior they're seeing is trauma based or just developmental? So there's two different things that I kind of look for and I'll be honest, like even for me as a practitioner, and I do this everyday, all day, there's times where I still need to look something up. Yeah, I bet there's just, you know, developmentally there's so many changes, you know, kids change developmentally every six months[inaudible] so it's hard to remember every single thing. But I love this series of books. Thereby Lou Louise Bates Ames. Yeah. Yeah. The um, what's your, uh, what's the title? Well there's one for each year. So like this one that I'm looking at right now is called your nine year old. Yeah. Your nine year old, your eight year old, your seven year old. Right. Exactly. Love these. They're, they're great. Um, they go over every single thing you can think of developmentally that a Kiddo is experiencing. But I would say the big thing I look for is, you know, with the behavior, is it age appropriate first and foremost because for example, it's super, super normal for a two or three year old to have temper tantrums. Like you know, like I can remember those days of carrying my kids out of the store know, screaming that they want it and you know, kids are just going to do that. That's part of the time where they learn emotional regulation and at the same time it's not in the realm of normalcy for a five year old to have a long drawn out temper tantrum. So what we're looking for is what's normal development age wise and then the frequency of the behavior and the intensity. Like, let's say you're with your five year old in the store and they really want the toy that you're saying, no, we can't have that. You know, they might wind for a little bit or kick their feet around a little bit and then move on. Okay, that's fine. But you know, we're looking again at intensity and frequency. If the same child is screaming and throwing things for 30 minutes, 45 minutes, an hour, clearly that side side, the range. All right, so frequency and intensity and, and whether or not just developmentally it's, it's on spirits, it's spike for the child. Should be what, you know, another thing that parents have to decide is do we make a big deal? Do We, do we actually address this issue or do we just, some things we just need to let slide. So how do we know the distinction between those things that need to be addressed and those things that we can just, you know, s, you know, put them on the back burner and, and know that they're likely will, we'll go away. And Don, are you talking about things that we address as parent to child or that we address by taking the child to therapy? Well, probably both, but probably mainly taking to therapy. You know, what's, what, what, what raises it rises to the level of importance, uh, with our children that we need to do something about[inaudible] if it interferes, if a behavior or symptom interferes with the child's functioning in any way at home, at school, in the community, that is something that we address. Okay. Yeah. And yeah, and, and even to go a step further, I, I, I know I'm a therapist. I know obviously I believe in therapy. Um, but one of the things that is so hard for me as a therapist is seeing a family that's waited and waited and waited and it just breaks my heart because here's the thing, like when your Kiddo is around eight, even if you're thinking, you know, we've had little bumps in the road, there's really not what we would consider big issues that need to be addressed by therapy. Kiddo at eight is, is welcoming to therapy, meaning they're more open to it. And they're going to be more inquisitive and interested and you know, they're going to enjoy coming. I know that sounds weird, but they're going to enjoy coming to, um, you know, a lot of times at that age, we do coloring. I do stories with them. I do play stuff. Um, I'm not heavy into play therapy, but with a child that age, you use play. And so I want the child to get to know what therapy is and to get to know me as a therapist four times in the future where they may need to come in. And it's a great time for a therapist to check out a kid and say, yeah, I think they're doing great. Or I think there's this one little thing, let's work on that. Let's do a few sessions so it doesn't blossom into something else. So that you address things early on. The child gets to know what therapy is and it's not scary or intimidating or means that they've got quote unquote problems or issues. It's just, it makes it natural and comfortable so that you know, if the child, you know, goes when they're eight or nine for a few times and then doesn't go back until they're, you know, 12 or 13 you know, or even a little bit later, they're still going to be open to the process. You know, when Kiddos have come in and they're 15 1617 they've never been to any therapy at that point. They're naturally, you know, developmentally they're beginning to become independent and so they don't want to, for the most part, you know, there's kids that do, but for the most part they're not nearly as open to coming to therapy and it just makes it a lot harder for them and for the therapist. Right. It normalizes getting help, which is actually a good life lesson kind of across the board. Yeah. It's a great life lesson because you know, life is not a straight shot. It's a series of ups and downs. Yeah. Amen. Amen. Right.
Speaker 4:This show is brought to you by our underwriter, the jockey being family foundation. Jockey being family has a national backpack program that provides newly adopted Kiddos with a backpack which is personalized with their initials. And each backpack includes an adorable little bear and a blanket. But, and from my perspective as a parent educator, I will say one of the things that's most important is that it also includes a parent tote and the tote bag is full of resources for parents that helps them navigate the adoptive parent journey. If you're a parent, please ask your agency to join up and be a part of the backpack program. And if you're an agency then then do it yourself. It's easy to do. Go to their website, jockey being family.com and click on the word[inaudible]
Speaker 3:correct. It is free to agencies and it is free to families. So get on over there and grab that backpack. Now another question we often get is, uh, about triangulation. It's probably one of the most frustrating things that parents face, especially. And, and I think that adoptive and foster children are more prone to that. So let's talk a little about a triangulation. Um, what is it? First of all, it's a fancy word, but it's a, it's, I guarantee it's something that most of us have experienced. Oh my goodness. Yes. And it's, it's really frustrating for people who are in it. So triangulation is, um, the idea of a triangle and a triangle in relationships. And oftentimes that's basically two sides or two corners of the triangle. So it's two people or a person in a community or school or other entity against another. So oftentimes what I see is it's typically one parent and the child and their in, um, in collaboration against the other parent. Give us an example.[inaudible] uh, the, the example using a parent, give us an example. Okay. So for example, um, the one that I see the most frequently is there is a child that is upset with maybe their mom. Um, because as you know, in adoption, the majority of the time when Kiddos are upset with the parent, it's typically the mom, which I feel like goes back to the abandonment that they incur from bio mom. Um, so typically what happens is that Kiddo will complain about mom or Mom's decisions with dad and dad will be in agreement with the child and then say to mom, hey, why are you being so hard on our kid? You know, you don't understand where they're coming from. You're just, you know, your, um, consequences are too hard on them. You're just not being understanding and nurturing. Like I thought you would be. You're just, yeah, you're just too hard on them. And the mom, oftentimes what happens in the background is the Kiddo is doing things that the dad doesn't see. You know, they kind of save it for mom unfortunately. And so mom is struggling on her own typically to work the best they can with the child and try to help the child heal from the things that they've experienced in life. And unfortunately, when this triangulation happens, mom and dad are on a separate page and the triangulation continues. It makes it really hard for mom and dad to work together, which is really what the child needs, the child needs for mom and dad to be a team in order to help. The child heal from whatever they've experienced, that trauma, that loss or abandonment from their past. And you know, the child isn't doing it to be hateful or mean. The child is doing it out of survival and of it has worked for them in the past. It has worked very well. And so, you know, they're just in a place of fear and acting on that fear. I think it's so important for parents to realize that sometimes the behaviors, they may be unproductive behavior thing that may drive us crazy, but very often the behaviors we're seeing we're seeing because it has been effective for this child and may be effective enough that it was lifesaving, uh, our emotion saving for them. So yeah, completely. How often do you see that, uh, situations where a child prefers one parent over another? Is that fairly calm? I would say, I mean, I can't think of a percentage off the top of my head, but it's, it's fairly common and you know, you have to remember it's brought up more when it becomes more intense. I may not hear about it in a more mild case. You know, and I think all families regardless, you know, that we call it an opinion shopping, you know, where the child will didn't get the answer they wanted from one parent. So that's a fairly typical, yeah, that's just, you know, kids being kids. Yeah. This is, this is different in, it's a whole different level of, um, you know, and I know typically the person who's, who's being outstayed from the triangle feels like the child's being incredibly manipulative and you know that that word has such a negative connotation to it. But really that manipulative stance really goes back to what I was saying before, that it's, it's out of fear and survival. All right, so let's talk a little about the, I mean, we've talked about a triangle and that gives us a good visual image. So there are three corners to a triangle. Vaguely remember from my, um, geometry, oh, what are the typical
Speaker 2:roles? Are Corner's a softer call? What are the corners of the triangle by, but I think it really means, or what are some of the typical roles that when we're caught up in triangulation, we might be playing or we may be able to recognize the other[inaudible] our child and our, uh, our spouse, our partner might be playing. Sure.
Speaker 3:Typically the Kiddo is in that rebel place. So that's the, the child separating the parents and creating that triangulation. So it's oftentimes where they will pit one parent against the other. And typically the mom is the person who's in that warrior kind of role. So lots of concern about how this is ever going to get back on an even Keel, how the child's going to heal if they're in the triangulation. And also how in the world is she going to get dads to see that this triangulation is happening? Because so many times the dads don't see it. And then finally the dad is in that fixer role oftentimes. So these aren't, you know, these roles can be fluid, people can change around. So it's not like, um, this is a role that they're stuck in. But this is kind of typically how it, how it looks. So typically
Speaker 2:the three corners, let me see if I can do that. I see the three corners, we have the fixer, then we have the warrior, and then we have the, the rebel. And so, uh, and the, the parent who is on the, out of the, of the, of the, the trio tends to take the role of the, uh, the worrier and child typically will take the role of the rebel and parent who is in the ink cahoots or is in the, uh, in, in conjunction with the child tends to be the one who wants to come in and rescue and fix and do what exactly.
Speaker 3:Exactly. And you know, you know, it's hard because everyone has good intention here, but we still need to name it and say it's going on to be able for it to really be, you know, something that can become part of the child's healing. As long as that triangulation is going on, everybody's sort of stuck. So what are some ways to break the triangle and now you're stuck in a triangle. Um, now you've recognized it. So what are some ways to break it? Well, I think first is to recognize that it's happening and so each person needs to look at what's my typical role and then triangulation. How do I notice that that is, um, coming up? What kinds of feelings do I have when that triangulation occurs? For example, the dad might be in that fixer role and might say, wow, I really feel like I need to save my kid, or I really feel like I need to, you know, tell my wife that she's doing something that's not helpful. So recognizing the thoughts and feelings that go along with the role and then naming it and saying, Hey, I can, I can tell that I'm having an urge to tell you that you're doing, you're not doing this right and you're being too hard on our, and so when everybody can name it and say that, yes, this is happening, then they're able to say, okay, let's take a break here. Let's take some deep breaths. And really look at how can the parents be a team and working together, how can they compromise on whatever might be going on and really be able to talk through the situation as opposed to kind of being pitted one against the other. Really we want to the mom and dad to be the team and the child to be under them. Right. We don't want the dad and the child or the mom and the child being a unit as a team against the other parent.[inaudible] okay. X. So recognizing it. Um, and then also it seems like from what I heard you saying, also recognize what you may be getting out of your role. Definitely you, because sometimes we choose a role and because it's meeting a need need we have, sure. And the, and the thing is the child's not going to probably break. This is going to be up to the two, uh, the two parents, um, and, and Lou and just before we move off of triangulation, um, it's not always with the parents. It gives us some other examples. Sure. Where it might not be the parent. Well, you know, the child might come home from school and say to the mom, my teacher is so mean to me. My teacher, my principal, the counselor at school, my who they're picking on me, they're terrible to me. When maybe that's not actually how it happened. Um, and again, it's, you know, oftentimes maybe it's, you know, the child's in that place of feeling scared that, you know, felt scared that the teacher did get upset with them. Um, and at the same time, that doesn't mean that, you know, the, the teacher was mean and rude and hateful and hates my guts and you know, wants me out of the classroom. So I think it's super important when we feel like we need to jump into that fix it role or that worry role, whichever role it is that we take, take a deep breath and take a step back and really look at, okay, what, what else could be going on? What might I be missing? And, you know, calmly go in to talk to the teacher or the principal or the school counselor or whomever to find out exactly everyone's point of view. And you know, that's not to say sometimes our kids don't get picked on and then you know, your mama bear can come out. Great. No problem. Let's make sure it's not a triangulation first.[inaudible] okay. Excellent. Thank you.
Speaker 4:This show could not and would not happen without the generous support of our partners who believe in our mission of providing unbiased, accurate information to pre and post it up to families as well as to pre and post foster families. A couple of our wonderful partners include children's House International. They have a reputation for working in the best interest of children and supporting adoptive families while providing ethical adoption services. They'd been uniting families for over 40 years and have found homes for over 3000 children. We also have hopscotch adoption. They are a hae accredited international adoption agency, placing children from Armenia, Bulgaria, Croatia, Georgia, Ghana, Kiana, Morocco, Pakistan, Serbia, Ukraine. And they also do kinship adoptions and we thank both of them for their support of creating a family.
Speaker 2:All right. As our children age, um, they have, they have a number of different identities. Clearly they have the identity of our family with the adoptive or the foster family because that's where they are now. But they also didn't just, they didn't have it been with us forever, especially if they'd been adopted in an older age. So they also have the identity of, and even if they had been adopted at birth, they still have the genetic identity and other cultural identities, racial identity of their birth family. And then especially as they age into adolescence, they're beginning to form their own identity based on who they are. So it seems like for one of our roles in helping children heal, um, and, and helping them grow into being the people that they need to be, uh, and are meant to be is to help them integrate all of their different identities. But they have a lot of different identities. So can you give some suggestions on what we can do as, as adoptive parents to help our children integrate their different selves?
Speaker 3:One of the things I like to do with Kiddos and those preteens is to really talk about those different parts of them and how all those parts come together to make the wonderful, wonderfully made Kiddo that they are. And so one of the exercises I'll even do with kids is I'll take a piece of paper and kind of divided into three columns and then at the top of each column, all right, birth, family, forever family. And then me. And what we do is we kind of go through what do they feel like and um, and also if the parents are in the room, parents can chime in, but you know, what did they feel like are the things, the gifts, the talents, the physical traits or attributes that they've gotten from their birth family, the things they've gotten from their forever family, and also the things that are just them. And it's a really neat exercise to do with kids because you know, it's on paper, they're writing it down, it's visual, they can see it, we're talking about it, they hear it. And I think it's really neat for them to be able to see, wow, I'm really kind of, you know, I'm made from all, all these great parts of me are coming together. So that's one way I like to do it. And then another way is to help them. Cause I like to do things that are visual, not just the auditory explanation. I think it's super important to incorporate all forms of learning for kids because kids learn in all different ways. And so another thing is to take different colors of yarn or maybe, um, the floss and um, so maybe they would choose orange to represent birth mom and Light Blues Represent Birth Dad and different colors for adoptive mom and dad and them and braided all together. Then that would be a bracelet that they would wear to remind them of just all these amazing parts of them that they have that come from all these great people that they've had in their lives. And I know sometimes, which I understand, you know, I know one concern that maybe adoptive families would have would be, oh and they can also include foster families that have been important to them as well. But um, I know sometimes you know, adoptive families are concerned about, well, you know, my Kiddo had a really tough birth family and you know, I don't, you know, I'm not in favor of a lot of the things the birth family did and I understand that in it the same time we can still find maybe, you know, their eye colors just beautiful. And that came from birth mom. Like let's look for the gifts and the attributes and the positive qualities that arose from, you know, the people who gave birth to them. Yeah. I do think that foster and adoptive families, it's, especially if it has been, the children have had a very rough beginning. They don't want their children to identify with the birth family. But the reality is our kids are going to identify one way or the other. And and recognizing that and finding the positives that they can identify, which is not to say you ignore some of the negatives, but uh, but recognizing that, that, uh, each of the families that have been in their lives have brought something that's helping this child become, as you said, the wonderful person that they, that they are. Yeah, definitely. All right. I want to talk now about some practical tips. Uh, let's be honest, as parents, oftentimes we really need to know are some really good tips of what to do in the heat of the moment to help our children heal and from past loss and trauma, but also to help them behave in a way that, uh, is, is acceptable and teaching them. And, and the, the, the essence of discipline is, is education. So in many ways, what we're trying to do is educate our children to behave in a way that doesn't make them the subject of, of, of the teachers. Does this, Dane are other adults or other children's disdained. So let's talk about, first of all, let me, let me back up and say, um, one question we will often get is how do I help my child heal? And when I don't know what happened because sometimes our children aren't able to tell us it happened before they were pre-verbal. Our, their children don't remember or don't remember it on a conscious level. Um, are for whatever reason are not able to tell us. And that's not uncommon and either a foster fostering situations or when adopting older children regardless if we are adopting them from the foster care system or internationally. So how do we help them heal when we have no clue what really happened? Right. Well, um, you know, before age three people don't have autobiographical memory and so they're not able to close their eyes and picture that memory in their head. They don't, they don't see a picture in their head of what happened. And so they're not gonna feel like they remember, but they have different kinds of memory that do hold what occurred. And so they have a emotion memory. Um, they have body memory. And so they truly do remember the things that happened and you know, apparent. We'll note this. If you can look at a child's behavior and recognize that that had to come from something that occurred to them, like for example, let's say in your home. So you adopted a Kiddo at age two and a half, right from an orphanage. And maybe in that orphanage they had, you know, they had food at every meal, but it was the exact same meal all throughout the day, every day. So your child comes home at two and a half and you notice right away or soon after that they get very upset if they don't have food, if they don't have food on the, you know, that they can see on the table. And so clearly they don't maybe have that visual memory at that point, but their behavior shows that there wasn't adequate food for them. And that's that body memory or the feeling memory that's coming up for them. So the way that we work on healing is through recreating the past trauma, but with a new and, um, more healing kind of ending to it. So what you can do is a lot of times in therapy, I'll do this in, in pictures. So I'll ask the Kiddo to draw a picture for me about when you lived in the orphanage, there wasn't enough food for all the kids. And so what do you think that looked like? And this is obviously a kid who's older that can draw. If it's a child who's younger, you would use little like for example, a little play people. So what we'll do is we will have the child draw or, um, state how in the drawing, how they were feeling. Like we would ask them to draw a picture of what it was like for them to not have enough food in the orphanage. And then we would imagine, you know, saying, Hey, let's imagine that we're there with the child, you know, with this little two year old, you know, what's it like for them being at the orphanage and not having enough food. And so we really kind of go through a recreation of what would the child need to feel better in that situation to feel less scared or less sad or less angry that there wasn't food. And so a lot of times kids will say, well, I wanted a buffet at the orphanage and I'll say, great, draw that buffet in there for that little two year old. And they will draw every single food that they wanted to have that they feel like that they wanted to have at that age. Um, and so creating for them in a way what wasn't there in the moment.
Speaker 2:Okay. And that would be the recreation of, of through in a safe environment, through play, acting with stuffed animals are, or dolls or drawing depending on the skill level and the age of the child.
Speaker 3:Right. And with older kids, we don't use drawing. I don't use drawing or play, we just talk through it. But with all that, you know, it's part of what I do in EMDR therapy. Um, and EMDR therapy is a way to work on past trauma. So that stands for eye movement desensitization and reprocessing.
Speaker 2:That's a, that is a way, it's another, that's a, it's a therapeutic method that is effective for children who have experienced trauma. Correct. All right, so let's talk about some other, uh, things that parents can do. One, talk about the child's experience play, act at, recreate it with a different outcome and an outcome that the child has some control over. Alright. So what are some other tips and practical tips from a parenting standpoint that parents can implement? And let's start by talking, because I think this is so often, I'm speaking for myself here. So often where I need to focus is I gotta start with me. Yeah. Uh, because generally if, uh, you know, if my kid is really misbehaving, I'm irritated at this point at sure. Maybe even past the irritation point. Uh, and so, uh, let me, let's start with things that, that parents can, mantras or whatever that they can use to address themselves before, and then we'll talk about actual techniques they can use with their child.
Speaker 3:Okay. I mean, I think first and foremost for any parent, easy said, easy for me to say, but we have, we have to stay in a place of calm. Yeah. Because, um, like you've already mentioned, you know, you know, our children know us and when we begin to get frustrated, irritated, annoyed, they know right away and their brain begins to match ours. And so the more frustrated and agitated we get, their brain will follow and they will match, if not surpass our level of frustration or irritation. And so, you know, a parent needs to notice their early warning signs. So what are my early warning signs that I'm starting to get frustrated or agitated? They need to stop and take those deep breaths and really slow themselves down, slow their body down, slow their movement down, really concentrate on softening their face and their voice. And you know, really, really recognizing I need to, I need to be in a place where I'm calm and caring for myself and for my child. Okay. So that's the, the first step is to, uh, get into your head and, and recognize that you are, you've got to be in control here. If it's going to be effective, it's all right. So what can we do with our children? Um, one of the things that, uh, you've talked about is finding just right. Um, what do you mean by that? Well, I'm finding just right is one way to help kiddos calm their body. And this of course is before it gets, um, before a child gets too agitated, there's other things you can do when a child gets more agitated. But in the beginning you want to make sure that your kiddos body is in a calm place, um, for them to stay calm because your body and your emotions kind of follow each other. And so I talked to kiddos about, so there's, um, there's, I use three different squares right next to each other, um, and I color them in. So the green squares in the middle, the Blue Square square is to the left and the red squares to the right. And we, a lot of times I'll talk to them using that Goldie luck story about the porridge being too hot, too cold and just right. And so when their body is moving too fast, that's in the red, too hot, too fast, um, when their body, and that's oftentimes when you see agitation on a Kiddo, remember I talked about kids also will be on the opposite end of the spectrum and shutting down. And that's that Ballou too slow. So maybe they're not looking at you, they're not talking, they refuse to answer. And really, we want our Kiddos to be just right in the middle where they're calm, they're able to answer, they're not yelling, they're, they're just right.[inaudible] a lot of times I think our children don't really recognize the emotions they're feeling. So how, and that is an impact of trauma. Yeah. So how can we help them recognize and identify, um, and is that helpful ultimately and letting them gain control over some of their emotions. Oh, completely. So, you know, just kind of sticking with what I just mentioned, another way that I'll work with those three different colors in those three squares is, you know, what's an animal that moves too fast? A lot of times kids will say, um, like a a lion or a tiger too slow would be and just right might be a dog. A lot of kids like to say dog dog or a kitty cat. And so you know, you can practice with them. Okay, show me, show me the tiger, how's The tiger move? And then you say, okay, now show me the turtle. Now show me the dog. And so we're helping kids learn how to adjust their body given where they are because we want them to stay in just right when we're in the home. Now when we're outside on the playground, they can be like that tiger and, and to be moving fast and we're in the library, we want them to be turtle. So it really depends on where they are as to how we want their body moving, which in turn affects their emotion. And so you can play a little game with them and try to, you know, get them to move in different ways according to where you are. Okay.
Speaker 2:Another issue that our children often face is um, negative self-beliefs. Um, they don't often, they've very often not had much positive said about them and their behavior doesn't lend itself to people saying Nice things about them and they, they come to us with beliefs about themselves that have been formed through interactions with their birth family interactions with adults who are responding to their poor behavior. So how do we address the negative self beliefs our kids may come to us with? Right.
Speaker 3:Well I think, um, first is you want to help them verbalize that. So in times where you think possibly that your child is having a negative belief about themselves, you want to ask them, I see that you're sad. I know such and such happened at school today. The teacher yelled at you. What does that make you think about yourself? You know, we're looking for what's the answer they're giving? I'm always amazed at how honest and forthright kids can be. If you ask the question, a lot of times people don't ask, but you know when you ask them that, they might say, well, I, I think, I think the teacher thinks I'm a bad kid because I think I'm a bad kid. Or they may say, well, the teacher yelled at me and that made me feel upset, but I understand it was just I was yelling in the classroom and we're not supposed to. So you want to look for how does your child answer the question. So if you are able to spot that negative self-belief, clearly you want to talk with your Kiddo about that and say that's not true about you. You know? Yes, some things have happened and in the past you made some decisions that weren't wise, but that's not who you are as a person. I know you're a great kid and so you have to look for as a parent how your child is responding to that. If your child is responding to that and healing, then that's great. That's what you want keep doing. If you are giving that child that you know, feedback and they're not healing as you're giving the feedback, then that would be a time to look into therapy. Okay.
Speaker 2:And the last thing I want to talk about is something that I, I think that it's gotten a bad rap and that is behavior charts. A lot of parents and quite frankly a lot of professionals will say that they're simply not effective. And yet I think when done well, they can be effective even for children who have experienced trauma. And we know there can be effective for children who haven't. But yes, but I'm talking about kids who have, and they're an effective healing tool as well. Not just to get your child to behave a certain way, but I think they can be effective in the, in the heating, healing modality. So let's talk first of all, what is your opinion on, on bone behavior charts? I love behavior charts. I thought I kind of knew that because of the book that was a set up cause I'd actually have read the book and I agree. Um, so, all right. So, uh, let's talk about how to do them well and how to do them with children who have experienced trauma. And we want to do them in a way that helps heal. So, all right, solid. That's a set up. So wait, how do we do that?
Speaker 3:Okay. So, um, I think first and foremost, parents want to start with what is one or two at the very most three. And when you're starting out, I wouldn't do more than two behaviors that you want to work on. And we want it to be very specific behaviors that give us an example. Okay. So on a behavior chart, oh, and let me just add, we want the statement of what we're looking forward to be set in the positive. So we would not say, you know, don't yell. Yeah. Or some apparat. Yes. We would not say those things. So we want to tell the child what we're looking for so they know what to do. Okay. For example, we also wouldn't say I want, you know, number one wouldn't be something global, like behave out when we're out in public or listen, you know, just a real general, you know, listen, when we go to church, um, those are way too global. We need it to be something very specific. So you might say something like, I'm trying to think of a specific behavior here that we could work on. So for example,
Speaker 2:um, when, uh, when mom says no, that you cannot have a toy at the grocery store. Okay. Um, uh, let's say, so we're gonna say positive. You will be disappointed, but you will, uh, well not throw a tantrum that saying negative. Okay? You put it in the positive, but, okay,
Speaker 3:so, so that would be, I will accept moms. No.[inaudible] okay. So, and you can add to that if you want. You could say, I will accept mom's know, um, by saying, okay, what you would do is you would have, like I said, no more than three of those goals. And then what we want to come up with is in the very beginning, the first week, we want to make the child successful. If a child isn't going to start out successful, they're going to lose interest very quickly. So if you feel like your child could manage that two times this week, then you're going to start with two right? Two Times this week I want to fill in the box of my child accepting no and saying okay, I will accept your no of not getting the toy. So start out small and know that next week you're going to go up to three times that week of accepting no. And the other thing is, so we want to change that up every week. The other thing is every week you have to come up with something that the child wants to earn at the end of the chart. If the child really isn't interested in earning ice cream, then that's not going to be a good goal for the child to to a good thing that they want to earn at the end of their chart. And the other thing you have to think about is like let's say Sundays after dinner you go get the ice cream, you get the reward the child is earned. Well, if the child is eating a lot of dinner that night, eating a whole bunch of ice cream is not going to be a big reward either. So you want to time things, well you want to make sure that it's maybe an hour after lunch or an hour after dinner is when you go get the treat. Okay.[inaudible] so, so charts need to be changed frequently to maintain the child's interest. If the goals aren't changed and if the amount of times they have to earn the goals aren't changed and then the reward isn't changed, they will lose, they will lose their interest quickly. But if you can change that up, that you can keep the charts going and it can be[inaudible]
Speaker 2:great way to work on behavior. And I would also say depending on the age and the chronological age, but also the developmental age of the child a week may be way too long. You may be absolutely, it may be half a day. It may be between now and lunch. Yes, definitely. Yeah. And the other thing that, that I had found effective for just some children and most will not need this, but for some children, if it, the reward is let's say something tangible, like a matchbox car to actually tape the matchbox car onto the reward chart so that the child actually sees it. And again, a lot of kids who won't need that, they going to have the ability to, um, to, uh, imagine and hold it, hold it in their head. But for some kids, um, oftentimes the ones that you're having to say, we're only going to go half a day because he has the idea is that we want them to raise, we want them to experience success. Definitely. And a, and some kids, you know, a week, it's just going to be way too long. Oh, definitely. Right. So it does, it depends
Speaker 3:on the child's age. You can shorten it too. Usually when I do, um, a morning and then an afternoon or different points that they earn or different squares that they earn. So that's one way to also do it. Or you can shorten it to like two or three days and then you earn a reward. Absolutely. And try to keep in mind to rewards aren't something that we spend a lot of money on, right? You want to try to make rewards. Things like relationship builders in small things like ice cream cone or things like liberal arts, things from fabric store or you know, the dollar store. So or relationship like, you know, getting to play a game with mom or dad or someone in the family that they normally don't get to do. Okay. Excellent. Yeah. So, um, consider using behavior charts and play around with them, uh, with your child and find out what's effective and what works well. Thank you so much Carol Logia for being with us today to talk about how to help our children heal from trauma and past loss. If you have enjoyed the information in this podcast, do us a favor and please recommend it to a friend. Most people find out about podcasts from their friends, so be a friend and recommend ours. Also, the views expressed in this show are those of the guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of creating a family. Our partners are our underwriters. And keep in mind at the information given in this interview is general advice to understand how it applies to your specific situation. You need to talk with your adoption or foster care professional. So Carol, if people want to reach out and get more information about you, they can certainly buy the book. We've got a number of books. Um, but uh, the one in specific, the adoptive and foster parent guide, they can do that off of, um, off of any independent bookseller or Amazon or any type of online seller. Um, where can they get more information about you? Yeah, because, um, I have a lot of great free resources on my website, so my website is Carol, those your lcsw.com. It's super easy. Carol Loescher, lcsw.com. Yup. Thank you so much for being with us today, Carol. I appreciate it.
Speaker 1:[inaudible].