We talk to our kids all day, but how can we use these conversations to help them reach their full potential? Our guest is Rebecca Roland, a speech pathologist, Harvard lecturer, and author of the book The Art of Talking with Children.
In this episode, we discuss:
This podcast is produced by www.CreatingaFamily.org. We are a national non-profit with the mission to strengthen and inspire adoptive, foster & kinship parents and the professionals who support them. Creating a Family brings you the following trauma-informed, expert-based content:
Please leave us a rating or review RateThisPodcast.com/creatingafamily
Please leave us a rating or review RateThisPodcast.com/creatingafamily
We talk to our kids all day, but how can we use these conversations to help them reach their full potential? Our guest is Rebecca Roland, a speech pathologist, Harvard lecturer, and author of the book The Art of Talking with Children.
In this episode, we discuss:
This podcast is produced by www.CreatingaFamily.org. We are a national non-profit with the mission to strengthen and inspire adoptive, foster & kinship parents and the professionals who support them. Creating a Family brings you the following trauma-informed, expert-based content:
Please leave us a rating or review RateThisPodcast.com/creatingafamily
Please leave us a rating or review RateThisPodcast.com/creatingafamily
Please pardon any errors, this is an automated transcript.
Dawn Davenport 0:00
Welcome, everyone to creating a family talk about foster adoptive and kinship care. I'm Dawn Davenport and I'm both the host of this show, as well as the director of the nonprofit, creating a family.org. Today we're going to be talking about the art of talking with kids. If you've got kids, do you know that talking to them is important, and that sometimes it's more art than science. We will be talking today with Rebecca Roland, she is a speech pathologist writer and Harford lecturer. Her book, The Art of talking with children, shows you how to enrich your interactions with the kids in your life, and build the skills they need to thrive. Welcome, Rebecca to creating a family. Thanks for having me. What led you to write a book about the art of talking with kids?
Speaker 1 0:48
Well, I'm the mom of two kids, myself, as well as a speech pathologist. And what I realized when raising my own children, is that we actually don't spend a lot of time really focused on the everyday interactions that we have with our own kids. And I knew a lot about the power of conversation to build children's skills in so many areas. But I felt that even myself being a professional, I wasn't spending much time or attention, actually thinking about our interactions. So I really was motivated to understand that as a journey and to help other parents and caregivers do so as well.
Dawn Davenport 1:25
You know, it makes sense. It does feel like we talk to our children all the time. Please make up your bed, dinner is ready. I'm telling you guys stop hitting your brother, you know, take your finger out of your nose. There is a lot of it's constant. I mean, it feels like at the end of the day, it's like, oh, just I don't want to hear anybody talk. And yet I realized that not all talk is the same. You have a term that you use called Rich talk. First, what is it then why is that important?
Speaker 1 1:54
Yeah. So I developed this term rich talk to think about exactly what you're saying of how do we get beyond these moral logistical conversations. So things like make your bed and get your soccer cleats and things like that, to things that are more meaningful to actually conversations where we feel we're connecting with our kids, our kids are connecting with us. And we actually are changing in the process in some way, maybe we're resolving a conflict, or maybe we're thinking of a new insight or our kids are, or maybe we're trying to understand how the other person feels. So things that are actually kind of at a higher level and deeper than the conversations we may have on autopilot.
Dawn Davenport 2:39
The mundane conversations that are necessary just to keep the family moving, literally and figuratively. So yeah, but the opportunities exist for us to take it deeper. Okay. So you talk about in the book, The Art of talking with children about different types of conversations, what are some of the different, which I assume we mean, conversations of rich talk? So what are some of the different types of conversations we should be having with our kids? If you can just list the types, then we'll go into detail about the different types. Yeah,
Speaker 1 3:11
so in terms of different types of conversations, there's so many areas that we can help kids with, but I've really zeroed in on a few key areas to really support children. So one of them would be how do we help children learn more deeply in terms of their conversations we have with them every day, not just in school, but even when we're at home? How do we actually help them be more curious and think more deeply? Similarly, how do we help them become more empathetic? We know that empathy isn't something that kids are always born with, we actually have to develop it. So how do we help them in their conversations? Similarly, how do we build their social skills? How do we help them resolve conflicts? How do we help them become more creative and playful? And also, how do we help them embrace diversity and actually celebrate differences in the people around them? So not just differences in maybe skin or hair color, but differences in thinking and temperament and personality and so on? And all of these conversations are things we can have with them, not in sort of one big chunk, but really woven throughout the day and all these kind of quieter moments of the day? Exactly.
Dawn Davenport 4:22
I mean, there's so many opportunities, if we're looking for them throughout the day to have these conversations. Let me pause here for a moment and ask you, are you enjoying today's podcast? Obviously, I hope the answer to that is yes. But if you are, it would really help us out. If you would tell a friend about this podcast, why you like it, and encouraged them to listen as well. It would help us improve our mission. Our mission is to strengthen families, and you're telling others about this podcast is a step in that direction. So please let your friends and family know about the creating a family.org podcast All right, now let's dig deeper into some of the rich talk conversations, deep talk, whatever that we should be having would help our kids if we were having with them. You talked about the first one you mentioned was learning. Can you explain what you mean? And they give us some examples?
Speaker 1 5:16
Sure, yeah. So I think all of us want our children to learn, obviously. And a lot of times we may find ourselves trying to teach them and kind of lecturing at that. So they ask us a question. And maybe we say, Oh, well, let me tell you all about that. If you have a whole speech prepared, or we tried to prepare a speech, or say, we don't know something, and it can maybe be stressful. So a child says, say, how many stars are there on the universe? And we think, Oh, I don't really know that or let me Google that. And we kind of brush off those conversations, because we don't know the answer. And maybe it's a little uncomfortable to feel like, Oh, well, my child is looking to me to teach them. And I actually don't have all the answers. I actually flip that around. And I think that actually not knowing the answer, especially to some of these big questions that kids are asking is really an opportunity for us to go alongside them as part of a learning journey. So we might actually say he kind of verbalize our thinking and talk aloud. I say, Oh, I think there's probably at least a million stars, but I'm not really sure. Let's see how we might find that out together. So here we're thinking less about being kind of the Oracle or the lecturer, and more about actually joining with our child and kind of partnership, and really helping their curiosity a lot.
Dawn Davenport 6:33
So we don't have to know the answer. I think sometimes we do get hung up on that. Less. So now, honestly, because we all have phones we all have. We can always Google it. Yeah. Which are saying there's nothing wrong with that. The idea is to do it along with our kids. And to admit, I actually think that's great to be able to say, I don't know how many stars there are. I know there are a lot, but I don't know how many. It lets Google it. Yeah. And there's so many opportunities, both when your kids are asking questions. But I would imagine there's lots of opportunities just throughout the day, to help them dig deeper and learn and think about things in a different way. Even when they're not asking questions. Can you give us some examples of that?
Speaker 1 7:17
Yes, exactly. So even when they're say, looking at something really simple and concrete, and especially for young kids, they may be really focused on something that doesn't seem totally fascinating to you. So maybe there's ways that definitely happens. So maybe they're staring at you know, some ants walking along in a line. I've done a lot of that with my daughter when she was little, you know, they're carrying leaves. That
Dawn Davenport 7:44
is not a fair example. That was actually interesting. Yeah, that
Speaker 1 7:46
is actually interesting. I do I do find that interesting. Sometimes, I remember watching something very basic, they're watching a pipe with water dripping out of it, you know, and they're sort of staring at this pipe. And occasionally water will drip out and that kind of thing. And you think like, why are they why are they doing this? Why is this interesting to them? And I actually propose this idea called curious waiting, where actually think we can just stay silent and really watch them and kind of become curious about what they might be thinking. So not just to say, oh, yeah, they're staring at a pipe. But what is it about that that's actually interesting to them? What is it that's drawing their attention? And you know, is it oh, how often do these drops? Cop? Or what's making the water calm? Or, you know, is it rain or something else that's coming out of the pipe, that kind of thing. And so then we can really imagine and kind of empathize with a child, you know, what is actually going on in their mind? And then ask them to kind of explain just to say, Oh, tell me more, or what about that is interesting to you. And in these moments, we actually get to know a lot more about our children, what they're thinking, what's engaging to them, and so on. And if we just said, oh, yeah, it's a pipe, let's move along. So taking that time, I think is really important, especially when you're not sure what a child is really thinking.
Dawn Davenport 9:04
And engaging in asking them exactly. And really
Speaker 1 9:07
just also thinking aloud. So I think even those small moments, we have a chance to say, Oh, well, you know, let's think you can even think about gravity, you know, what's making the waterfall downwards, what's making, you know, what's stopping it, there's so many different things you can talk about. And really just taking those simple moments to say, well, we don't have to have great conversations based on large topics are big, abstract questions, so we can actually have great conversations focused on something as simple as that.
Dawn Davenport 9:37
mundane, is that right? Exactly, exactly. Another conversation you recommend that we as parents are not just parents but adults in children's lives have with our kids is empathetic conversations conversations, I would assume to elicit empathy in our kids.
Speaker 1 9:53
Yes, definitely. And so I really think that there's kind of a common misconception. A lot of us have is that children are either kind of empathetic, or they're not empathetic. So we often say, Oh, this child is, you know, so sweet to other kids or this child doesn't understand other kids. And we tend to label kids like that. And I think in doing that, we often miss that empathy is really a process. So it's always in development. And it's always something that we can develop further in children. And actually, in doing that, we can develop our own empathy skills. So actually, it's really a process of even as adults, we can grow in our empathy. And it doesn't have to be, you know, these abstract lessons. So oftentimes, if we're trying to teach children say in the abstract about kindness, or caring for other people, children are tuning us out. So I think what's really important is to focus on actual situations, or times when a child is wondering something, or as a question or even makes an unkind comment about someone and taking that opportunity to say, well, let's, you know, imagine what that person might be facing. So really even trying to move into that other person's perspective, that can be a really helpful way of really building empathy in the moment, rather than feeling like we're going to, you know, abstractly talk about it, which often goes over many kids heads.
Dawn Davenport 11:16
And I think that there's so many opportunities when you're reading to your children. And that's such an opportunity to go off the script, and to talk about kindness of one of the characters, or what would that character be feeling when that happened? And TV shows as well? What do you think about cocoa melon doing that, or whatever, you know, of course, that would require oftentimes, when our kids are watching TV, honestly, we're using it as a babysitter. And as long as it's done in moderation, it's probably an effective one. So TV might not be the best example. But certainly with with children's books, or you know, now they've got storytelling, podcast, things that you're engaging with your child utilizing that, and books are such a good one.
Speaker 1 11:59
Exactly. One thing to keep in mind is that it's actually great to interrupt when you're reading a story. So sometimes we think, Oh, it's just read the story and just get through the story. But actually, there's a lot of research showing that kind of when we do let kids interrupt or we do interrupts not all the time, but you know, sometimes ourselves and ask those questions, we really can support a lot of these learnings, because it's right in the moment, right? When kids are really thinking about it. That's
Dawn Davenport 12:24
such a good point. You do think sometimes you're, you know, I'm messing up, particularly if you know, books for younger children sometimes have a rhythm and a flow, and you don't want to, and yet, honestly, there are books, every library has got tons of them, particularly for younger kids a little less so as our kids become independent readers, but really are focusing on empathy and feelings. And there's a Bernstein bear book for everyone and everything in every situation. So all of those are things that are happening anyway, in our kids lives.
Speaker 1 12:54
Exactly. And I do think to recognize that so many of these books, which are great, they really do bring in situations that kids have often faced in their own lives. So really, to think about how do we support them sort of making those connections and saying, Well, you know, has something like that ever happened to you? Or what would you feel like if something like that did happen to you? And a lot of this, actually, it's doing a lot of things. So it's actually building the language that children need for school learning as well. So even though it's focused on empathy, we're actually doing that kind of hypothetical thinking, where we say, well, what would a child feel like? What would you feel like if you were in his shoes, that's really actually helping them with their learning and their reading comprehension for later on? So it has always these kinds of braided benefits?
Dawn Davenport 13:41
I'm glad you raised that. Because I don't know that that's really the the thrust of why we should be having our rich conversations. But the truth is, there's fascinating research, and you would actually be the one I'm going to ask about it. But I've read some fascinating research on the number of words that are spoken to a child being directly correlated to that child's success in school. Well, the number of words, I think the what I was reading was was prior to the child entering kindergarten, have you also read some of that research? Oh,
Speaker 1 14:10
yes, definitely. Yeah, there's a ton of really interesting research on showing that especially how many words a child hears by age three, that has a ton of links to their later vocabulary to prepare their for kindergarten and then for their success in later years. So it's influenced by a lot of things like including the parents income and level of education, and there's a lot of factors. So people are kind of arguing about, well, what's the reason for that? But we do know that for sure that these number of words and even the types of words that kids are hearing is really important for their later success. So definitely thinking about that is sort of yet another benefit.
Dawn Davenport 14:47
Right. And we have to acknowledge the privilege of parents who have the option of not working two jobs who are exactly around their kids more often and are not at the time, you know, when they are around their kids do terribly distracted by just the basics of life. So that gets into some of the other factors. That's not simply words that are being thrown at a child. All of those things play in, exactly. In addition to the free resources on our site and his podcasts, and the other things we do at creating a family, we also have a training and support group curriculum. Obviously, it's for foster adoptive and kinship families, since those are the people we serve. But this curriculum is designed for both online and in person trainings or support groups. It is easy to use it is Video Base, very little preparation is required. But most importantly, it's also interactive, there is lots of discussion and communication amongst the participants, you can get more information at there's two ways to get information one, the website, parent support groups.org. And the second way is going to our website, creating a family.org hovering over the word training and the horizontal menu and clicking on curriculum. Alright, let's get back to the list of types of conversations that you think are important. You mentioned social skills, it seems to me that would be tied to empathy, but perhaps not. So how can we use conversation language to improve our children's social skills? Yeah,
Speaker 1 16:22
so I think part of it really involves starting to see ourselves as sort of mentors and coaches for children in terms of some of the social situations that they're facing. So oftentimes, we think of it almost as an either or situation. So either were, say, in the midst of children's conflicts with others, and we're trying to help them work it out right in there. Or we say, Oh, well, you're, you know, developing skills yourself, you should work it out and just leaving it. So I think there's really a third option where we do allow them independence, we do allow them a chance to work things out with friends or with classmates. But we also allow us ourselves in them to step back and have some reflective time after the fact and talk with them about things like well, how do we know that a friendship is good for us? How do we know if a friendship is starting to become negative or having a negative implications for some of the other classmates, and we often don't think about kind of children's social skills, it's also in development sort of over time, in the same way as empathy. So some children may say, immediately learn to make new friends, but other kids may have really great language skills. At the same time, they really have trouble entering friend groups, and they just don't know, you know, what do I say, to make new friends? Or what do I say to these new kids on the bus? You know, how do I get to know them? So actually doing some kind of role playing and talking through with them, some of these challenges can make it a lot easier for kids to feel like, okay, now I can navigate some of these things myself.
Dawn Davenport 17:59
How are you aware of when our children are very young, much of their social? Well, not even that because they're in daycare, so we may not see their social interactions? How do we find out about the social interactions, our kids have had to be able to better engage in conversation with them? Yeah,
Speaker 1 18:17
so I think there are a couple of ways. So one way that I found really useful is just to simply observe them in other situations. So if there's a on the playground with kids, they don't know. Or if they're, if you bring them to some kind of event, or to a party, you know, to watch them to watch a little bit, how are they interacting with older and younger kids are? How are they making their way into new situations? Or what happens if they get into an argument on the playground and really paying attention and saying, okay, at least not all the time, 100% of the time, but noticing, say there's a conflict over a toy? How is my child responding to this other child? What kind of strategies are they using? Where do they get stuck, that sort of thing. And another option really, is just to notice what they're talking about on a daily basis. So if they come home, and every day they say, you know, something kind of vague, like, oh, this friend or this child is mean, you know, like, what does that really mean? actually taking the time to unpack that a little bit with that, you know, not to say, What do you mean by that? But, you know, to think, okay, so what is it to be mean, what happened today? This is happening all the time. How do you act when that person says that I'm getting a sense from them of how they're seeing the situation, I think can be a really useful way in because it's true. We can't be there or not there during all of these interactions. Yeah.
Dawn Davenport 19:40
Also, I guess, talking with your child's teacher. Exactly.
Speaker 1 19:43
That would be that's another one I was just about to mention. Teachers and others who know your child. So really taking that time, especially if they're things like conferences, sometimes we focus more on academic skills, but realizing that those social elements are equally important. So if it does doesn't come up, just to really not assume, okay, that means everything's perfect. But let's just actually talk about, you know, what are some of my child's social strengths, social challenges and so on.
Dawn Davenport 20:11
And then looking for opportunities. Exactly. Coming back to books, looking for books that will address that. And then going off script. Exactly, it all ties back in. All right, you also in the book, The Art of talking with children, you've talked about conversations, for confidence and independence, those seem like hard concepts to teach our children, but talk about why that's important. And then some examples. Yeah,
Speaker 1 20:38
so really, I would say both of these are just so critical in terms of helping our children develop and thrive as they get older and older. And as they're expected to do more and more, and rely on us less. So really, independence and confidence look different at every age and stage. But we can always help our children and kind of nudge them in the direction of feeling more as if they can do things. And as if they can actually recognize and celebrate the sense of pride and sense of accomplishment when they do accomplish what they set out to. So I think about competence really as kind of a reaction. So we think about it kind of as an I Can reaction. It's not one specific action is not one specific scenario. But it's a general attitude of approaching things to say, Oh, I think I can try that. Or I think I can get partway there. And when a child maybe doesn't get all the way there of saying, Okay, I think I can try that again. And contrast that to a child say who's you know, they try something once and you know, I'm never going to be good at this, or I give up or, you know, I'm not, I'm not going to try this anymore.
Dawn Davenport 21:43
It's too hard.
Speaker 1 21:44
It's too hard. Or I'm just I'm a failure, that kind of thing. So really noticing that kind of self talk, that kind of sense of I'm not going to try again, and helping kids break things down and start to feel like okay, well, this part's manageable. So not necessarily, I'm going to just re attack that same problem in the same way and hope for it to work this time. But to say, Okay, well, let's actually step back a minute. And at least as long as the emotion maybe is, is down a little bit or the heightened emotion goes down to take a moment of reflection and to say, Okay, well, this is a really big task. But what part of it? Could we break down? What piece of it? Could we try to manage as a first start, and to help kids do that, and even sometimes, visually, I found it to be helpful to help kids actually make a charge or visualize their progress on a sheet of paper. So they're see, okay, well, I didn't get the whole thing done. You know, I didn't run five miles say, but you know, I ran for two minutes. And that was much longer than I was able to run two weeks ago, and that kind of thing to really help them see their progress. And also to kind of give them a sense of optimism about the future.
Dawn Davenport 22:58
I love the window, Charles says, depending on what it is, of course, but it's too hard. Acknowledging Yes, it is hard, but you do hard things. And giving an example of something in their life. What you did this, and it was hard. So
Speaker 1 23:12
that Yeah, I think I've definitely validating that. Oh, it does feel hard for a child. So I think sometimes we get into this knee jerk reaction of oh, it's not that hard. Or oh, you know, it'll be pretty easy when it for a child, it feels really hard. So acknowledging kind of that the both things are true kind of thing that it can be really hard. And I think you can probably do it, or let's see how far you can get if you try it may
Dawn Davenport 23:34
take a while. Last time you had it's a hard thing. It took you a while but you succeeded. And that's how we succeed with hard things. How does that tie in to independence? And what type of conversations can we have? That would lead to our child's independence?
Speaker 1 23:49
Yeah, so independence, I think involves almost a cycle of action and reflection. So we can't really help children become independent, if we're not actually willing, a little bit, at least, to kind of let go of the reins sometimes, and to say, Oh, we're going to let our child do things that might feel a little bit out of their comfort zone, or even a little bit out of our comfort. So Amen.
Dawn Davenport 24:12
And fail, let Archie, screw up, make a mistake, and maybe try to screw up but just make a mistake and fail. Exactly.
Speaker 1 24:19
And I think that that can be so hard, especially with that urge, obviously to protect our kids, you know that we think oh, well, I wouldn't do that. Or I wouldn't try that or you know, I'm not sure that that's the right thing. And sometimes, obviously, that's warranted, but at other times, we can think well, what really could happen, what's the worst that could happen? And if it's simply that the child could fail and be upset, really, I think that's something where we might need to say, Okay, well, let's let the child do it. Let's let the child fail and then maybe come back from the failure and the goal is to really help the child come back from the failure with a sense of resilience and a feeling that okay, well, it didn't work this time. What can I strategize for the next time? And so I think sometimes helping them with that talking through the strategies can be really helpful. So the why of why it didn't work. This can help kids feel like, okay, well, I can still be independent, I can try this in a different way, rather than the default being, Oh, it didn't work. So now I'm gonna go back and not do it. I'm gonna let you do it for me instead, I think sometimes that can be an initial reaction that kids have, oh, it's too hard. So can you just do it for me? Or even for homework? You know, I don't know that. So can you just answer that for me? And helping them kind of push off that urge to say, just do it for me? And say, Well, I think you can do it, and trying to scaffold or help them with that process through some of these verbal strategies.
Dawn Davenport 25:47
And the verbal strategies are helping them think through the steps that are needed, and practice that they may need before they can achieve. Is that what you mean by that? Yes,
Speaker 1 25:55
yeah. So definitely talking through kind of the why, let's analyze why it didn't work. So let's actually look at the failure not in sort of a judgmental, critical way, but in a really objective way as objective as possible to say, well, let's just take a look at what didn't work. And sometimes I will say that it's really helpful to start with something that we're failing at, rather than putting it first this process on a child, because sometimes it feels like, Oh, this is too emotional, or this feels like too fresh for me that like I feel that it's, I don't want to look at it, I don't want to analyze it. So sometimes if there is something say that we tried that didn't quite work, taking those in the moment time to say, oh, that's surprising, I didn't get this thing to work the way I wanted to. My computer was still broken after I tried X and Y thing. So let's talk about what didn't work about it. What could I try next. And then when you repeat that process with a child, you can start with something that's a doesn't feel as emotional to that. So something may be more playful that they try that didn't work. And then when it becomes kind of a habit, or a conversation that you might have multiple times between the two of you, then it can feel easier to do this. And times when there's sort of a more challenging or more emotional thing that didn't work for them.
Dawn Davenport 27:11
Hmm. I say this with empathy, because I am absolutely guilty of this. Sometimes with independence, it is just easier faster if we do it. Yes, you're sure faster and definitely less messy. And so it's a challenge, we have to fight that, particularly if we're and there are times where you don't fight each other in a hurry to get out the door. Okay, I'm going to put your shoes on and tie them, but recognizing that we need to create opportunities for our kids. And if we find we're always in a hurry than taking a look at our lives and saying okay, wait a minute. This child's never gonna learn to tie their shoes unless we add 15 minutes to oh, this don't say 15, let's say five extra minutes. Yeah, hopefully, I don't know what I was. 15 Extra routine? No one. So yeah, forget that, let's say five minutes that we're going to be working on it. Yeah, I am guilty of that. For sure. When my children were younger. If you are enjoying this podcast, you might also enjoy some of the free courses that we offer and our Online Learning Center. These courses are brought to you by The jockey being Family Foundation, meaning that it's their support that allows us to bring it to you for no charge. Yep, that's right. Free. We have a library of courses there that are free. There are 12 courses, and they are directly relevant for the act of parenting, a lot of them are really focused on parenting itself. So check it out at Bitly slash JPS support. That's bi T dot L y slash J P F support. Alright, continue Continuing down the rich, talk, rich conversations that we can have with our kids. Another one in the book is conversations for building relationships. Give us some examples.
Speaker 1 29:08
Yeah, so sometimes I've seen kids, for instance, feel like well, I have this argument with a friend of mine. And now we're not going to be friends anymore. You know, or say I don't like this friend, because my other friend said they were neat. And so really this logic of children often having trouble not only making friends, but actually managing their relationships and figuring out well, how do I come back from an argument? Or how do I actually move past in this understanding in a way that will help strengthen the relationship rather than tear us apart? And I see this a lot in terms of conflicts. So a lot of times if we actually explore conflicts from a more empathetic angle, it can ironically teach us a lot about the other person and about ourselves. So say You know, one child wants this part of the cake and the other child wants that part of the cake. This is a very basic example, obviously, but talking through, you know, well, what is it about that part of the cake that you want so much
Dawn Davenport 30:11
icing? icing is icing
Speaker 1 30:13
is the icing? Yeah, it was the icing that question for exactly. And it's like, okay, well, can we find a way that both of us can have a piece of the Ice Age? Okay, well, you got the blue kind, because blue is your favorite color. Okay, well, what about her? Does she care about blue? Maybe she doesn't. Okay, so let's do that kind of thing. So we actually start to work through, well, who cares about what, how can we make that each person get kind of their biggest priority? Even if they don't get everything that they want? And then actually learning well, okay, so we now know that this person is like, really into only the icing, but they actually don't care about cake at all, or they don't care about the letters. And that's just a basic example. But taking the time, not just to say, well, here, you have this part, you have that part. And you know, let's just be done. But actually being a little calm and objective and trying to help kids work out and talk through what does this person want? How can I help them get what they want? And not give up what I want? And how can we actually learn about each other and the process, we actually see conflict as a chance to do that learning, even if it is uncomfortable at times, or feels stressful at times, we can really help children work through those conflicts to build relationships, rather than to say, Okay, now we're just sitting here in silence, and we're upset at each other.
Dawn Davenport 31:30
It sounds to me like you're teaching the art of compromise. Exactly, yes.
Speaker 1 31:34
And I think of actually learning to use compromise as a window into the other person to say, Oh, now I understand more about this person, rather than I'm just more angry at them. And over time, obviously, you can see how that would have benefits.
Dawn Davenport 31:46
My daughter wants to find compromise. My eldest daughter, who struggled with compromise at that age, she was our brother said, What Is mom mean, when she says we have to compromise. And I had sat them down, and they said, You need to sit here and then figure out a compromise. And he said, What is my mean? Which I think you probably knew, but she said, it means we talk and we talk and neither one of us gets our way.
Speaker 1 32:11
I thought, well, yeah, that could happen to that's certainly a possible outcome. Well,
Dawn Davenport 32:15
yep, that's pretty much what compromise. And you're gonna sit there until you figure it out. I think that the art of compromise is, obviously since I did it a lot with my kids, I think it is so important. I think sometimes parents get into this thing where they if they compromise with their let's say, we were talking with a three year old, no, I'm not going to put on my shirt. Parents feel like if they go into negotiation that they're giving in, they're allowing this child to have control and things that they shouldn't have control on. And I'll grant you that I agree that sometimes that is something that we have to be aware of. But it seems to me that compromising even using such a mundane example, is a way of teaching the concept that, alright, how can you get part of what you want? You know, you don't want to put on your shirt right now. Okay, well, you want to go brush your teeth first, and then come back and put your shirt on, that would be a compromise. And then I also believe in formalizing the compromise with the shaking of a hand, or something along those lines, to help them remember that they actually did compromise. What are your thoughts on that? The parents feeling like they're just encouraging poor behavior? Yes.
Speaker 1 33:21
And no, I definitely agree that there's a time and a place for saying, okay, it needs to happen this way. And for even maybe giving a reason for why it needs to happen that way. This is definitely not saying argument for permissive parenting or saying, oh, whatever, you know, let's just if you don't want to do it, okay, that's fine. You know, what I am saying? And I definitely agree with you is that really to think through? Well, what part matters and what part doesn't matter? You know, if it's like, it doesn't really matter if my child has their shirt on first, or brushes their teeth first, it's really just sort of both of them need to happen to actually let your child know that to say, Well, both of these things need to occur to get out the door. But you know, you can choose the order. And actually, so many kids just feel they have such a lack of agency and choice that they are kind of putting up these walls about things that really don't matter, or at least don't matter to us. Well,
Dawn Davenport 34:11
there's certain developmental stages exactly your roles late to your roles, or just doing it to learn the power of the word no exact and that's okay. But it seems to me teaching compromise gives them using that as the Okay, yeah, you're right. The order doesn't matter. Here you get to choose, but I get to say that both teeth and shirt have to be on exactly
Speaker 1 34:31
yeah. And even to give a reason you know, it's it's cold outside. So yes, to leave the house and go to school, we're going to have to have a coat but you know, which of these coats you wear? You can choose? What's your favorite today? Which one do you prefer? Even sometimes changing the question in some way so the child is about code or not code. And maybe you can make the conversation more about well, which of the codes can often give that sort of sense of choice and agency without making the argument where we're just both digging in our heels and I think that Sometimes it is that that when a child puts up this no, it can be very triggering, I think. And we just say, Well, no, it has to be that way. And so we kind of get into this back and forth, when really it doesn't have to be that way. And it's more that of the emotions are kind of heightened on both sides on
Dawn Davenport 35:15
both sides. And that is because sometimes your this is not the first No, you've faced this morning when you're trying to get out the door. And sometimes you're just Okay, no, but And that's okay, too. But what you're saying is, let's use these as opportunities to deepen our kids ability to build relationships to be able to understand how life works and using conversation to move us there. Exactly.
Speaker 1 35:41
Yes. And I think even with the code example, saying, Well, we're going to carry your coat. But as soon as you get outside, you see how cold it is, you're likely to want to wear that coat, that type of thing. So to say it's sort of like what is non negotiable for us? And to recognize that maybe not everything has to be non negotiable, I think. Yeah, exactly.
Dawn Davenport 35:59
And quite frankly, with the code example, I was a big believer, and I might stick it in the car, but if they wanted to freeze, I really didn't care. Exactly.
Speaker 1 36:05
That's the biggest I think you'll think, yeah, kids, you're gonna figure that out and sounds pretty
Dawn Davenport 36:09
near them. And after, after they've been outside for a while, they will put it on? Yes, that comes into the old picture battle. Yes. And your cold is not my battle. or discomfort, I should say. It's not my battle. All right. Another conversation, which we think we're all aware now is more and more important, is a conversation. You call it for openness. And I think that you define openness fairly broadly. So let's talk about conversations for openness.
Speaker 1 36:38
Yes, definitely. So I really think that as kids are developing, it's so important that we actually support them in taking kind of a fundamental attitude of its actually interesting and helpful and good that I meet and interact with people who are different from me, in whatever way, because I think sometimes kids gravitate towards what's familiar. And that may be simply developmental stages. That may be the kinds of conversations they have. But it can be so easy at young ages for kids to start making assumptions about people that they don't know, to say, Oh, this group of people is like this, or this group of people does things this way. And to really start to help kids realize that, well, lots of people do things, different ways. But actually, understanding and embracing all of these range of ways of being of looking, even a thinking, actually enriches our lives and enriches your life, too, because they're going to encounter differences in so many different areas. And that's partly why I define openness. So broadly, because, you know, there's differences in the way we think the way we look, our religion, our beliefs, so many different areas. And I think it all starts with just cultivating this attitude of actually difference is good and difference enriches our lives before we start on any of these specific conversations.
Dawn Davenport 38:02
And I don't know that you specifically mentioned this. But it's easy for kids at a very young age to pick up on one difference, who would grant superiority to one group, that group is not as good as this group. And that speaks for surrounding our kids with a lot of diversity Exactly. So that they don't see that. And one way, although certainly not the only way, nor even the most important way, it's I come back to children's books, making certain that the main character and some of our kids books are a different religion, or a different race, or a different ability, and not just the supporting character, and that the hero is a kid in a wheelchair, we see that the some oftentimes, it's the sidekick, not the main character, and being aware of it, once you become aware of it, you look at the books that your child's checking out from the library, or the books that you have in your home library, and you go, Oh, gosh, and that takes intentionality. For sure, yeah, I'll throw out a creating a family created a guide to raising an anti racist child, that that's talking about racial differences. But we go into great depth in that guide. Things to specifically be looking for in your children's literature that's specific to race. You talk about this is helping our kids become global citizens. And what do you mean by that? Yeah, so
Speaker 1 39:26
I'm really thinking about those differences in international context. So the fact that our children as they grow up in this very globalized world, are going to need to actually interact with people from all over the world who speak all different kinds of languages who come from all different cultures have different races and so on. And to really help them navigate these things from a perspective of openness is just such a huge gift because as we're talking about, it's so easy, especially in a world where they're often hearing the news There's often sort of an us versus them mentality, to really have them pick up on those signals and start to say, Oh, well, I don't like these people, or I'm not going to learn that language. Because, you know, I met this person from who speaks that language, and I don't like them. So I don't like anybody who speaks that language. And so to kind of create all these categories, and lumping people into categories, and in the book, I talk about how we obviously all of us make categories of things. So this is a natural impulse, in some ways to say, Oh, I'm starting to understand the world. So I'm putting, you know, these are all tables, these are all, so whatever. But so when you apply that to people, that becomes really problematic, obviously, because you are starting to create these kinds of assumptions or biases. And so especially if we are using books to really help kids think through, for example, oh, I read this character. And in some ways, they're very similar to me, which is interesting. And we can talk about, but in some ways, they're really different from me, and maybe they celebrate a different holiday. Or maybe they, you know, have a different family structure and so on. And actually to not make the assumption that oh, it's better if we're all just the same, or let's kind of just pretend that we're both exactly the same. But actually to say, well, there's there's a lot to be found and a lot to be learned, and understanding or exploring that difference. Let's learn more about that holiday, maybe can we find somebody who celebrates it and talk to them about how do they celebrate it? And what's like, and unlike our holidays, so to actually recognize and acknowledge that there are these differences between us, but that there's sort of an underlying humanity as well. So helping them always see, well, here's the ties, but we can also celebrate the differences and learn from people who may act or look or believe things differently than us.
Dawn Davenport 41:47
And how would you use conversation with older kids as it comes up in context of the news?
Speaker 1 41:52
Yeah, so I think especially to help starting with what their assumptions are what they've heard. So a lot of times, we may go in and kind of have a pre planned thing or things we want to communicate. But we may actually be missing what the child's assumptions actually are, or what they have heard and what sense they're making of it. Oftentimes, we see that kids who are watching the news, may misunderstand aspects of it, or may make assumptions that might not entirely be true. So before we go in and say, Well, let me explain to you what's happening. Or let me tell you, you know, the people in the conflict, actually just ask them basic questions about what they know what they've heard. And kind of what their questions are, wonderings are, sometimes they might be worried about something you've never even thought about. So to really start with them and kind of a child centered conversation can be much more helpful in a lot of times than just thinking of an abstract lecture.
Dawn Davenport 42:52
Do you recommend starting with questions when you have a child centered conversation? Yes,
Speaker 1 42:58
I mean, I think it all depends on if the child is already coming to you with something. So maybe they're saying, Oh, I read this thing in the news. And I'm worried about it, to really kind of get more specific with that. So before you can really help them or just say, let me just tell you, Oh, that's not a big deal. Let's not worry about it, actually will ask them, you know, what is it that you're worried about? What do you think could happen? That type of thing is really helpful, just as a window into their understanding, and then into kind of what type of conversation would be most useful. So oftentimes, think of it as checking their knowledge, their boundaries of knowledge and ignorance, or even misconceptions before we try to start a conversation. So it doesn't always have to start with questions. But I do think it's a really helpful way to get a sense of their thinking. Yeah,
Dawn Davenport 43:47
that makes sense. With the last of the rich conversations that I want to talk about, is conversations to promote joy and creativity. It seemed like a good one to end on. So I mean, we all want our kids to be happy. We want our kids to be creative. We want them to live to their full potential. What are some types of conversations that were How can words help with that? I guess?
Speaker 1 44:11
Yeah. So I think a lot about not just play and play alongside children, but also playful thinking. So this really means that you can obviously do things that are fun with language with kids. So things like puns and riddles and jokes, and lots of kids really enjoy that. And if you don't even know you're not sure of some, you can obviously get books of these and we can talk about them. So that's one way even if you're saying, Well, I don't you know, I don't know any riddles. You know, it's very easy to even take a book and trade. So you read one, the child reads one, that type of thing can be just a really fun activity, but also, I think about playful thinking. So this really means an attitude of questioning and almost what if so, say you're just outside playing with, you know, a truck in the sand. So to think through kind of what what if that truck weighed 1000? pounds? What would it do? You know if it could go upside down? What would it do in outer space? What would happen? If so asking these kinds of imaginative questions, and helping children think through possibilities in a really playful way, can be a really helpful way to interact, but also to just spark their imagination and their creativity.
Dawn Davenport 45:24
The What if games Exactly. And I also
Speaker 1 45:27
think, to support children, even when they're having a conflict, or they're upset about something in trying to approach it in a more playful way. So it doesn't always mean that we're going to be playful or laughing about everything, but sometimes to say, Well, can we break up this conflict? Or can we break up the situation? by actually looking at it more playfully? So what if I was a dinosaur? How long? Would it take me to put on my shoes? Or what if I was, you know, very, very small? How long would it take me to walk this, you know, amount of distance to have kids kind of play around with those things, especially in times when things feel kind of stuck, or when conversations feel kind of like we're butting heads with each other. That can be also a really helpful way to break up conflicts.
Dawn Davenport 46:08
I will give an example that's relevant to our audience of foster adoptive and kin families. It's from my life, my eldest daughter came home from school very upset. I had dropped her off that day with one of her younger siblings who is not the same race. And somebody hits class had said that her younger sibling could not be her sibling, because they weren't the same race. And the eldest daughter was furious just me. She told him that wasn't true or whatever. But she came home still absolutely furious, just fuming. And we had talked about why they might think that we went through talking about families that don't look alike, and how we draw attention went on. Finally, I just said, what would you want to do with that person? And she didn't come up. I said, Boy, I think I might just tie him to a tree when it's raining outside, you know, and then she came up with something equally outlandish. And some of them were rather gruesome, some are not. And so what we ended up settling on her best one was, I would stuffed their mouth full of jalapenos. And then I put duct tape over their mouth. At this point, we were just laughing and laughing. And I say we have to stop there, because that's the worst thing I could pop. She likes jalapenos, and I don't. So that was, for me the greatest form of torture. I don't know if that fits exactly, because we didn't really solve the problem, in the sense that she had said that it wasn't true. We talked about having me come and read things to the class and read books and stuff. But anyway, by taking a light approach, in the end, it kind of got her unstuck because she was definitely stuck.
Speaker 1 47:46
Yeah, I think that's a great example. And I think, especially that, that melding meaning that you don't really have to be only serious or only playful, but that their conversations can do both. And I think that's a really important example where, you know, you still are going to talk to the teacher, and you still do validate her concern and the fact that this was very upsetting, but then also, in taking that more playful approach, you can say, well, let's also kind of step back and sort of validate our own relationship in some ways by playing along together and kind of showing that I'm on your side and showing that we can kind of take that moment of humor, even in this serious situations.
Dawn Davenport 48:21
Well, thank you, Rebecca, rollin for being with us today to talk about the art of talking with kids. And fortuitously that is also the name of her book, The Art of talking with children. Thank you so much for being with us today.
Unknown Speaker 48:35
Thank you. It was a great conversation.
Dawn Davenport 48:38
This show is supported by Vista Del Mar. They are a licensed nonprofit adoption agency with over 65 years of experience helping to create families. They offer home study only services as well as full service, infinite adoption, international adoption, home studies and post adoption support. And they also have a foster to adopt program for families in Southern California. You can find them online at vista del mar.org/adoption.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai